Forum Activity for @ken-hulme

Hi PATTY; Sorry to hear of your troubles.

First thing I would do is get a good FLAT steel rule (you Brits have a ruler, but that's different ) and make sure the frets are flat to each other. By the variances you list in "cents off" it doesn't sound like they are. Individual frets can be re-set as needed.

You found a US nickel and dime on your side of the Pond?

Replacing the nut/bridge -- Like John, I've never in 40 years heard of a builder using plyuwood for the nut/bridge. It makes no structural sense. The countertop material that John mentions - Corian (tm) - makes good bridges. But so does hard, dry bone, purchased plastic bridges; and woods like hard maple, ebony, lignum vitae, or snakewood. Personally I find wood easiest to work with.

The usual spacing on the melody string couplet is about 3mm between the pair (1/8 inch to us Yanks).

Point of grammar... since the dulcimer is normally played flat on your lap, not vertically, most folks don't think of 'top' and 'bottom' strings the way guitarists or mando players do. We usually refer to the nearest string(s) as the melody string(s); next is the middle drone, followed by the bass or bass drone (farthest from you).

If you continue to have problems, you might get in touch with Robin Clark, up in Snowdonia, Wales at Birdrock Dulcimers.

Well, there you go Patty !!! You can see that the questions I asked you a while back in that PM, have all been asked again here, so if you can provide us with just someanswers we may be able to help ?(that bit of Geoffs answer re a 'compensated' bridge relates in part to the question I asked about the type of bridge you have)

John

Patty

Ken asks some very sensible questions - and knowing something about your dulcimer, as Strumelia asks, would also be helpful.

Sorry, but there are also other variables. If you are tuning the dulcimer to something other than it was designed for, or using strings of different gauges than the original, it may well play out of tune - the bridge is usually "compensated" by the maker for both.

But tell us a bit more about the problem and the instrument before we start worrying you too much!

All the best. Geoff

P.S. Welcome to the UK and European group!

Patty, can you tell us a little about what kind of dulcimer you have? Does it say who made it? Is it used or brand new? Where did you get it from? Is it possible to post a photo of it? All this info would help us figure out what the problem might be. Also, as Ken asked- just how badly out of tune are you talking about- a little or a lot?

P.S. I re-named this thread to better reflect your question so more folks could help.

Patty -- the big question is "How far out of tune?" A few cents? From dead on to full sharp? Technically, anytime you press down on a string, you're stretching it and causing it to go a tiny bit sharp.

You said "...a new dulcimer..." brand new from the builder? Or new to you? How high is the action? What we consider a good starting point is the nickel & dime test. If the strings just touch a dime placed next to the first fret; and just touch a nickel placed on top of the 7th fret (not the 6+ fret). If the action is much higher than this it is very easy to stretch the string(s) far enough to go serious sharp.

Sounds like I would have really liked Dep. MO. Sorry to realize he's no longer with us. Has anyone filled his shoes??

I came across Rod on PalTalk, and he was a good person. It was always a pleasure hearing his playing, as well as him talking about his assorted dulcimers and sharing what they were tuned to etc. I still can not believe it's been 3 years.

Thanks for that Lisa ! As for the angels, well, he always seemed to have plenty of instruments out on loan ............. !!! Dusty, I agree with you about Paltalk, he as good as held my hand when I first went on .

John

I can't believe it's been three years. Wow. Rod was the first one to welcome me to FOTMD. He was a generous and kind soul. One reason I don't join the dulcimer club on Paltalk much anymore is because his absence there--even after three years--is so palpable it makes me sad.

I like that image of him teaching angels to play the dulcimer.

FOTMD member John Henry in the UK recently posted a video of his beautiful version of The Friendly Beasts, one of my favorite Christmas Carols.

John Henry then mentioned that he was encouraged years ago here on fotmd by our then-moderator Rod Westerfield affectionately known to us all as "Deputy Mo". John Henry writes:

I had more or less abandoned noter play until I found my way here, used a peculiar form of chordal play instead, but thanks to our friend 'Deputy Mo', who offered encouragement not only in my use of the noter, but also in the way I approached this infernal machine...I gained a little confidence, and now you have me , warts and all. All I ever try to do is (i) illustrate that expression can be coaxed from a tune when using a noter, and (ii) share what I do in the hope that it may help others....

John (it was Rod who drew my attention to the use of this tune as a Christmas Carol ??? )

Rod loved this site dearly- tirelessly helping and encouraging everyone, particularly beginner players. He was a good friend and a great help in all ways. His posts and explanations are still helping people here. Sadly, Rod passed away unexpectedly on Christmas day in 2010, but his contributions, posts, and FOTMD page are still here on fotmd: https://fotmd.com/rod-westerfield

I remember Rod particularly at Christmas time here on the site, and John Henry's video and comments made me recall how Rod and I agreed that The Friendly Beasts was one of our favorite carols.

So I thought it would be nice to pull Rod's recording of The Friendly Beasts from his profile page playlist and post it here below. I've attached the MP3 clip at the bottom of this post. We can raise a little toast to 'Deputy Mo' this holiday season, and know that he continues to help and encourage players, both here on FOTMD and up on high...I like to think of him teaching the angels how to play the mountain dulcimer...

Well my alto C seedpod strawfire ocarina showed up on Friday. Fits nicely in the hand and feels lovely to hold.

The Aria ones do sound lovely, good choice! I like the brown glazed seedpods as well, earthy tones, and no 2 are quite the same.

Ruth It's an Aria tenor, not nearly as high as the soprano. Cats don't seem to care for my ocarina OR my rebec....just too piercing for them- they run for the door like crazy! lol

I like those brown raku-style seedpods, they sound nice too I think. The twleve hole isn't much diff from the ten hole ones- those two tiny 'extra' holes on the 12 hole give you a couple of very handy sharp or flat notes, but you don't have to use them. That enables you to play in a couple more keys, or songs that have an accidental note here and there. I notice lots of xmas carols have those notes. But good thinking to start on a 6 hole or 8 hole pod Oc.

What brand of ocarina? And given the cats reaction, was it soprano? I'm toying with getting either a seedpod or scarab style one from Songbird, but an alto. Both these are 6 holes, the 12 hole ones look too daunting.

Love the NA also, Only have three.

I love the NA flute too! Infact I like them so much I have 6 and just sent some wood this morning to a flute maker to have one made. lol I even attend 3 different flute circles in my area. Tons of fun

Yeah right, I'll be playing Stairway to Heaven soon....or Zelda's Lullaby....

I love the part about the cats! When my neighbors had a dog, I could play harmonica in my dining room and make him bark and howl along with the music next door. My cats never seemed to mind. My wife, on the other hand... well, I never had an actual curfew, but she says she can relate! And playing while on the road generally requires going further away from civilization than the people who smoke.

I had to refresh my memory on ocarinas. Rock on!

I bought an ocarina last week, and have been having some fun on it.

I've always loved the sound of recorders and whistles playing early music- medieval and renaissance, even just early folk tunes. Well made ceramic ocarinas can sound pretty nice once you get the hang of controlling proper intonation with your breath, especially if you learn a little vibrato. I've never played a wind instrument before, but always wanted to try one. I do have a passion for learning new things and exploring new musical challenges.

The challenge in this case is- I'm using it as a little tool to improve my limited skill at reading music (standard notation sheet music). I can pick out tunes in standard notation, but it's a laborious process for me- I want to be able to sight read sheet music better than I do. Surprising how this ocarina is actually helping a lot with that. My ocarina plays in key of C, but can play sharps and flats as well, so I'm just starting by playing very simple early tunes in C with limited range and reading them from the sheet music rather than using 'ocarina tab' like many folks do. Ocarina tab is pretty annoying, and if I'm going to spend any effort learning to read anything I figure it might as well be something I can use for any instrument.

I'm learning a lot and it sounds pretty...sometimes. To me at least. lolol...

The high notes can be a bit intense, and after only like four days, the cats Suki and Sheba just know. As soon as they see me take the ocarina out of the box they both rush to the door and run downstairs to get away from me. Brian set an ocarina curfew of 10 PM. Whaa....?? Suddenly I'm a leper.

Gosh, gang, I am suddenly immensely grateful that I kept my mouth shut. A couple years ago DH took up guitar. The nook in the house where he practices is awash in picks, music sheets, instrument stand, books, tuners -- you get the idea. He seems happy so I just putter on by. Now I am seeing that I may need my own hill of goodies -- this dulcimer world does become expansive, doesn't it?

Ah, yet another thought! I am using a Herdim pick but there are some guitar picks in the house and I can look at some homemade options too. Thanks for the suggestion.

Hi Robin

The dulcimer I am playing is the one that is in my thumbnail photo -- it is a teardrop shape -- it's really very charming -- I am hoping to sit down with the maker -- but holidays are a busy time and I need to wait until there's a hole in his busy schedule. Meanwhile, I toddle on. The truth is most of the odd sounds are likely due to me. Ellen

Robin Clark said:

Hi Ellen,

Do you have a photo of your dulcimer - I'd like to look at the set-up you are using.

It is interesting that the maker designed the instrument for Gdd tuning and a short scale. There were a lot of old dulcimers that were pitched up to the key of G, particularly those with a slightly shorter scale - and that can give an instrument a really bold voice. You don't need to drop to the key of D if you like the instrument's voice in G. There are ways around that issue. For example you could tune to GDg with the right string gauges on that 24" VSL and still follow all the DAd TAB and lessons (you just pretend you are in DAd and everything works out fine but you are in a higher key). If this is the dulcimer you bought from your local friend who build it you could get him to help you set it up to playperfectly inthe style you want - I'm sure he would help you get absolutely the best tone and playability from the instrument for your prefered playing style.

Hi Ellen,

Do you have a photo of your dulcimer - I'd like to look at the set-up you are using.

It is interesting that the maker designed the instrument for Gdd tuning and a short scale. There were a lot of old dulcimers that were pitched up to the key of G, particularly those with a slightly shorter scale - and that can give an instrument a really bold voice. You don't need to drop to the key of D if you like the instrument's voice in G. There are ways around that issue. For example you could tune to GDg with the right string gauges on that 24" VSL and still follow all the DAd TAB and lessons (you just pretend you are in DAd and everything works out fine but you are in a higher key). If this is the dulcimer you bought from your local friend who build it you could get him to help you set it up to playperfectly inthe style you want - I'm sure he would help you get absolutely the best tone and playability from the instrument for your prefered playing style.

Thanks, Everyone, for helping out. I will try the single melody string. I am really learning to appreciate FOTMD -- I would have a hard time moving forward without the internet support. Ellen

Ellen said "I am a bit confused on one other thing. It sounds like many people switch back and forth between Daaa and Dadd tuning -- but Ken's string calculator suggests two different string sets. So does one just go with the strings most often used in one of the tunings?"

Yes we often change up a note or two and down a note or two using the same strings. As you saw, from a set of DAd strings you can go up to EBe, and perhaps FCf; but you'll probably break a string trying for GDg. Likewise you can go down to CGc easily, and perhaps BFb before the strings get too floppy.

Going from DAd to DAA is even easier because you're just slacking off the melody string from d down to A.

You can also tune to Dorian Mode -- DAG -- and Aeolian Mode DAC without changing strings. Those tunings give you very minor sounding scales for tunes like Shady Grove, Drunken Sailor, Scarborough Faire, City of New Orleans, Be Thou My Vision (all Dorian Modal tunes). Aeolian Mode gives you tunes like Come All Ye Fair and Tender Ladies, Greensleeves, Long Black Veil, and Wayfaring Stranger.

Ellen, I was just about to suggest the same thing as Randy. You will get a cleaner sound if you use one melody string. Try it and see if the dulcimer sounds better to you.

Ellen...slacken one melody string and lay it over to the side.....then play without it and see if the 'echo' is gone.

Yep, it's still Mixolydian... all the tabs still work... you'll just be playing in E instead of D. Strother's calculator is a little "light" for my taste, so if you can ease them up a pitch it may take away some of it. However, it could be that you just have an instrument which has a lot of sustaining power and it seems like an echo. Some people like that in a dulcimer; some don't.

OK. So is that still a Mixolydian tuning? Your comment made me smile because when I heard the audio clip, I thought the same thing. "That doesn't sound so bad" -- but in real space the drone is . . . really long. It's not sounding charming like it should. There's a big buzz from inside the box at some points.

Elaine, I really didn't hear an excessive echo in your sound clip. However, just for curiosity's sake you could try tuning up to EBee and see if that takes away some or all the problem.

OK, We followed the advice here. The dulcimer is now strung thusly : Bass string 22 Middle String 14 Melody Strings both 11 and tuned Dadd. I think there is too much echo. Oddly, when I tried an "Appalachian capo" (pencil held with rubber bands) across the first fret, it all sounded better. The dulcimer came to me tuned Cggg and the original strings were bass =26 and all others = 18.

I am going to upload an audio file and I would most deeply appreciate advice. I am a bit confused on one other thing. It sounds like many people switch back and forth between Daaa and Dadd tuning -- but Ken's string calculator suggests two different string sets. So does one just go with the strings most often used in one of the tunings?

Ah, even more helpful insights! We're about to put the new strings on and will try Ken's suggested 22, 14 and double 11's. Hopefully that will get us to the place that we just have Operator Error to explain why the dog heads out the dog door after the first strum . . .

Ellen, I'll just add one thing here- your 24.5" scale length/VSL is rather shorter than most dulcimers. McSpadden dulcimers for example are 28 or 28.5". What this means simply is that if you and someone else with say a McSpadden were BOTH tuned to DAdd and you both had the very same strings on, then your dulcimer's strings would feel a little 'flabbier' because of your shorter scale length. To correct that, one would typically put slightly thicker strings on a shorter instrument to achieve enough tension to play and sound taut enough in standard tunings. If you tune a regular string and a slightly thicker string to the same note, the thicker string will feel tighter at higher tension. But then, you've also learned that one can tighten a string too much! That's why we use VSL length and string calculators to figure out what gauge of string we need for tuning a string to a certain note.

Wow. That is VERY helpful. We will brave the Black Friday crowds to see if we can come up with 22, 14 and two 11's.

Onward!

OK Ellen. I went to the Strothers String Calculator -- www.strothers.com and plugged in your 24.5" VSL Here are the results.

C = 24 G = 16 G = 16

D = 22 A= 14 A = 14

D = 22 A= 14 d = 11

If you go to the first page of the Beginner's Group here, Lisa has written out tuning directions, and there is a link so you can hear which C, D, and A you should be tuning to...

http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/group/beginnerplayers

You're on the right track with the strings, gauges and tuning Ellen. Hope the new bass string makes everything sound good. Whoever made this pic did a helpful thing.

I just measured from the nut to the bridge and came up with 24.5 inches. I'll need DH's help to get an audio file uploaded - might be a couple of days.

I did wonder if I was in the right octave. Going from memory, I thought "I start with middle C" - so I started heading for middle C on the bass string. Well, that was wrong. I broke the string! Then replaced it with a different product that seems to make the sound worse still. What a muddle. Will try to dodge the shopping crowds tomorrow to get a duplicate of the bass string I broke. Then will begin again, tuning the MELODY strings to D just above middle C. Once we're at that point, we'll try for the audio file upload.

Meanwhile, Turkey Day was filled with dear friends and good food. I am blessed (no matter what my levels of dulcimer ineptitude).

Many thanks for the quick responses -- makes me feel like I'm not alone with this particular knot.

Ellen -- the gauges mean nothing to us unless you give us the VSL, as the two are intimately related. 26/18/18 isn't bad for some VSLs and some tunings.

Ditto what Rob said...

Ellen... those strings sound like they should be "right." What is the vsl of the instrument? Sounds like you might not have the melody string up to the right octave. Remember, It should be an octave above the bass. Are you using an electronic tuner? Most of them show which octave you're tuning to by a number. As for the "echo," if you could post up a sound file, it might be easier to diagnose.

Hope your Thanksgiving is Happy

Rob