Forum Activity for @rob-n-lackey

Briefly... (maybe). The 6 1/2 fret is not necessary for chording or playing more modern music.  Check out the playing of Robert Force, Dan Evans and the late Roger Nicholson, none of whom use/used a 6 1/2 fret. Is the 6 1/2 convenient?  You betcha. I have more instruments without the 6 1/2 than I do with (I think) and tune to 1-5-8 as much as 1-5-5.  BTW, If you're in 1-5-5 an interesting tuning is to raise the bass string a whole step giving you a 5-1-1 tuning in the Mixolydian mode. Now, after saying I would be brief, I must go practice and try to figure out what I'll play on Sunday.

Douglas -- the dulcimer isn't "fretted for a mixolydian scale".  As Dusty says, a dulcimer is traditionally fretted Diatonically -- does not include the half intervals of a full Chromatic fretboard like a guitar. As he also says,  back in the 1970s builders started adding the 6+ half interval to allow them the play both a Mixolydian Modal scale and an Ionian Modal scale from the same tuning.

If you are building this dulcimer for personal use, then the question of whether to include the 6+ fret depends on your playing style and musical choices.   

IF you tune DAd (or any Mixolydian tuning) and play Chord Melody style -- fretting across all courses, THEN I would include the 6+ fret (and possibly the 1+ fret as Dusty suggests).

IF you play Noter & Drone or Fingerdance style -- fretting only the melody string, THEN I would forego the 6+ fret and learn to quickly change the tuning of just the Melody string to switch between all of the Modal tunings as needed. 

Alternatively you can forego the 6+ fret and tune to a Unison or "dropped Unison" tuning (ddd or Ddd for example).  This does for those of us who do not have the 6+ fret, what that half fret does for people who only tune DAd -- that is allow us play more than one scale from the same tuning.

As far as an appropriate place for your question -- it's always better IMHO to start a new thread with a new question rather than "riding the coattails" of someone else's Q&A.  That way others who have your same question can more easily find it and our responses to you.

Whew!   That's a mouthful of names right there, Banjimer!

In a previous post in this thread, I incorrectly stated a family connection between David Love and brothers Smith Oliver and Millard Oliver.  I have since discovered that David Love was the grandson of General Miles Love, who I had erroneously identified as being directly related to the Oliver's.  The half-brother of the Oliver's was Silas Jackson McGuire, not General Miles Love.

However, David Love's grandfather, General Miles Love, did have a direct connection to the Beech Mountain dulcimer tradition.  He was the son of Polly Presnell and his connection to the Beech Mountain dulcimer tradition was through Polly Presnell's son, Roosevelt Vance Presnell, and grandson, James Miles Presnell.  Polly Presnell, incidentally, was the younger sister of Beech Mountain dulcimer maker, Eli Taylor Presnell.  And General Miles Love and Roosevelt Vance Presnell were brothers.

Roosevelt Vance Presnell and his son, James Miles Presnell, were Beech Mountain neighbors of the Hicks family.  Their dulcimers follow the same pattern as dulcimers made by Leonard and Clifford Glenn.

Douglas, as I think you know, the dulcimer was originally a diatonic instrument.  Some time around the early seventies or so, the 6-1/2 fret started to become pretty common.  It is now the most common configuration of frets on a dulcimer.  It allows people tuned in what was a mixolydian tuning to also play the ionian mode or major scale.  The second most common "extra" fret is the 1-1/2 fret, which you are referring to as the minor 3rd.  I like that extra fret because in a 1-5-8 tuning you get the lowered third on the melody string and the lowered seventh on the middle string, so it's conducive to playing the blues. 

A while back I posted a piece called " What are Half Frets and Do I Need Any ?" It will likely answer your questions.

Is this the right place for my question? I'm new to dulcimers and want to understand why some frets are left out but others included. In particular is seems it's fretted for a mixolydian scale, plus the  6 1/2 fret (major 7 of root/open). It appears some makers delete that major 7, and some keep it and add a minor 3rd.
I'm making a dulcimer at the moment and am approaching the fretting stage - so, keep the 6 1/2? add a minor 3?, leave both off... 
It may help if I say I come from guitars and am likely to want to try chords and finger style, minor keys as well as major, explore various modes etc. The one I'm building is 4 tuner, but I'll probably string it 3 at first (can change bridge & nut easliy later to adjust string spacing).

If this question belongs somewhere else, please help relocate me!

thanks, Douglas

Hey Douglas and welcome to FOTMD.  

The go-to book for chords that includes more tunings than you will ever utilize is Neal Hellman's Dulcimer Chord Book , originally published by Mel Bay in 1981.  You can probably find pretty inexpensive used copies, but even new it only goes for about $10.

We have a group here specifically on Dulcimer Making .  Go ahead and join that group, peruse the existing conversations, and start a new one if you have a question that is not already answered somewhere.

I'm new here and new to the dulcimer (as a player and maker) but listen to a lot of traditional music so not new to hearing the dulcimer played. Two questions please: is there a recommended or favoured chord chart book for the most common tunings? And how do I find the group here about building them - I'm building one at the moment.

Many thanks for all help!

Douglas

Just for background, things I have and play: Fender bass, Mayones fretless bass, Furch OM31 acoustic; Esteve 8F flamenco.
Listen to: huge variety but e.g. Aoife ODonovan;, Adrienne Lenker, Emmylou Harris, Tim O'Brien, (etc).

Squeakyhawk -- Welcome to our happy place.    There is an ancient style of presentation which I use often -- play a verse/sing a verse.  I have issues with combining the two things, so I just don't.  No reason you can't use the same technique.  At least start with speaking the verse,  then when you get more comfortable chant the verse in time to open strums.

Yes, Pluck is a must read book.  My student gave me copy on Thursday night and Monday morning I was finished.  I didn't think I'd like the lay-out but it was really good.  Only wish a couple of people who have gone on since David could have been around to add some details.  I've read parts of it several times and hope to re-read the whole soon. Get it; read it.

"PLUCK" is an amazing and unusual book.  I obtained a copy and read through it with much interest and wonder.  So many people, so many events being interwoven for David's entire life.  Quite extraordinary.

@salt-springs I read Pluck and will re-read it sometime.  I learned lots about David Schnaufer and other players, too! 

Welcome.  So you can’t sing, huh.  Compared to who?

There are many many amateur entertainers who can’t sing, but they sing anyway.   Learn two songs that are in your range, practice, and go for it.  

Hi I was given a mountain dulcimer for my birthday.  Then I went to Ohio on vacation and went into a used musical instruments  store and I couldn’t help myself and bought another mountain dulcimer.  I guess know I better learn how to play it.  I also play guitar and learning how to play Native American Flute.  I have written some songs.  I am very much an amateur player and I can’t sing.  So the songs I wrote I speak them along with playing an instrument  

On August 23, 2006 David Schnaufer, probably one of the greatest Dulcimer player ever, left us.  I was thinking this morning that many new players may not realize the influence he had in making the dulcimer well known to both professional and amateur musicians.   So many great players have gone on..........and by the way, Linda Paulus' book, PLUCK is a great read..........you should get a copy and reflect upon the musicians mentioned, some of whom are still around and members of FOTMD.  (Thanks for doing what you continue to do!)

There have been so many...................

Ken accurately enumerates the many variables that affect the sound of an instrument, and you have two very different instruments here in terms of size, design, wood, etc.  You even tune them to different keys and different modes!  In short, they should sound different.

In general, most luthiers have a consistent feel and sound, but within that consistency is room for variation depending on the specific model, the woods chosen, the bracing, etc.  

Susie, I have several guitars and ukuleles on my walls, but only two dulcimers. I guess I need to remedy that!

I will second this, and will add that their varying sizes come in handy for different applications....playing at home, taking to a festival, going in an RV, etc. Depending on where I'm playing and if I will be playing with others, I decide which one to grab. Also, you can have them tuned differently.  Not to mention the beauty of dulcimers.....different woods and appointments.  So, as you can see, we NEED many dulcimers.

RoyB, one of the things I love about mountain dulcimer is what you've observed-- how different they each can sound.  

Quote:The interesting thing is that virtually identical dulcimers from the same builder -- dimensions, materials, finish etc -- can, usually do, sound different from each other.

Ken, this last part of your response is interesting.  Guitar manufacturers, I believe, go for the opposite.  Taylor in particular, from what I understand, with its increased standardization and automated processes, strives for identical instruments of a certain model.  If you purchase X model guitar, you should expect a certain feel and sound out of it.  Smaller luthier shops of course are different, as would be individual dulcimer makers.  I like the idea of each instrument having its own individual voice and character.

VERY COMMON.  You have two instruments with different internal volumes.  That is a major factor in the sound -- just as it is in your guitar and uke.  Apples and tangerines as it were.  There are hundreds... maybe a thousand factors which affect the overall sound of a dulcimer. Among them: 

volume of body
area of sound holes
VSL
number of strings
plain vs wound strings
string tensions
where the bridge sets relative to the endblock
total mass of vibrating wood
mass of fretboard
area of top and back available to vibrate
internal bracing
kind of finish
mass of finish
external muffling (lap/arms)
thickness of top/back/sides
material the nut & bridge are made of, and, oh yeah
wood species 

... to name just a few.  

The interesting thing is that virtually identical dulcimers from the same builder -- dimensions, materials, finish etc -- can, usually do, sound different from each other.

Just a general observation about my experiences so far.  I have an old, handmade 28.5" VSL 3 string instrument tuned Aeolian at CGA#, and an Apple Creek 24" VSL, 4 string instrument tuned Ionian at DAA.  I play noter drone on each, lighter, smaller noter on the Apple Creek, heavier on the other.

Despite playing the same way on each instrument, same pick, same type of rhythm, they sound like two entirely different instruments.  Roughly like playing my guitar and my ukulele.  Nothing wrong with this at all, I don't think, just an unexpected observation.  Is this common?  Thanks.

I did make a note out of one of them, Skip. Hollowed it out, too.

I heard bamboo tomato stakes from a garden center are Tonkin cane. It's used for top quality split cane flyrods and those giant scaffolds you see in China. 

Black bamboo may be a favorite as a noter, but as a garden plant, it's nothing but headaches !  I'll check the garage to see if I still have some stalks that I had cut down as possible noters.  If so, I'll post here again and let you all know.

Dusty -- Black Bamboo - Phyllostachys nigra is my all time favorite.

Roy --  never use fresh 'green'  culms from the current year,  always harvest culms which are at least a year old.  That way they don't need to dry, just cut and use.

We used to have a big grove of black bamboo on our property.  That variety develops a hard black sheen on the outside that is great for use as a noter and can be used as soon as you cut it to size.  It also has a groove on one side that is perfect for resting your finger.

Ken, I considered asking for culms from neighbors when I made Native American style flutes, but I'd assume fresh bamboo would take a year to dry, before it's usable?

If you like bamboo, just ask someone like me, who has tons of various kinds of bamboo growing all around, to send you some lengths of culm.

@ocean-daughter  --  Bamburgh and Lindisfaran are fabulous.  Visited there the last time we went over.  My Scottish clan has links to that area when it was 'debatable land' between between Alba and Ængland about the time of The Conquest.

One week from today, friends.  :)  

RoyB,

I'm glad the turkey call striker dowels are working out for you.   I left some at 5 1/2 inches long and cut some others down to 3 or 4 inches in length.

Another unique source of noters intended for other purposes is to buy river cane arrow shafts on E-Bay.  They come in lengths suitable for making arrows, but can be cut to shorter lengths as needed.

A final possibility is to  use Spanish cane cut to length.  Spanish cane is the material used to make drone reeds for various types of bagpipes.  It can be purchased in varying diameters to suit the player's needs and cut to length.

[quote="Banjimer"]

Search on E-Bay for "turkey call striker dowels".  They are available in a variety of hardwoods, can be purchased pre-rounded, and cost about $10.00 for ten dowels - each dowel is about 5-6 inches long.

Well, Banjimer, I have to tell you - I went ahead and ordered three purple heart turkey call striker dowels on Ebay.  They arrived today, and I'm very pleased with the size, shape and feel.  Very hard wood, right diameter for me (5/16"), and a bit over 5" long.  I also found demonstrations of their real use on YouTube.  Amazing.  Thanks again for the suggestion.

I'm more of a folkie.  Never really into heavy metal :)

Yes, I think I'll stick with wooden noters, at this point.  It would be interesting to see a bolt noter in action, though.

If you take a heavy [metal] noter [I used a 5/16  x 3 1/2 " bolt] and with a light touch, you can slide the bolt/noter on the string, without the string touching the frets, and change the pitch. You need the mass of the bolt/noter to kill the strings vibration at the point of contact. I also tried a piece of 1/2" steel rod which worked the same as the bolt. I had to use a real light touch because the MD is set up for chord/melody with low set strings.

The frets then act as lines locating the the notes. For the big spaces the note is just past [bridge side] the 1/2 way point between the 2 frets.

But, since you say you had problems with dobro slides, this may not work for you.

I pretty much mastered that on guitar, but the noter is completely different, of course.

Only enough pressure to make the string touch the fret. Sometimes with higher frets, if you press the string all the way down to touch the wood, then you are further stretching the string and making it sound sharp.

That is something I've been working on, Strumelia. Trying to see how much pressure is really needed to get a clear sound.

I think skip means you don't have to push the string all the way down to the wooden fretboard when pressing down the string between the frets. Also try to keep the noter not slanted- it gives a clearer sound. (unless you are purposely using the slanted noter technique for other reasons)

Ok. I think you mean I don't push the string down onto the actual fret, but just to the left of it? That I know from playing guitar.