Forum Activity for @dan-goad

That was some really tasty sauce on those noodles, Robin.  Looking forward to the full course.

Thanks for the info Robert and Sean - much appreciated.  I love your A scale banjo Robert.  My banjo is a Essex and Cammeyer from around 1895 that I was given.  It has a short neck but 26" scale so the bridge position is a little closer to the tail than usual.  It was in a right mess when I got it but I've fixed it up so it's playable.  It will tune to a'AEae without a capo coz I've just done so!!!  I've just had a noodle around with some major and minor tunes in various modes from the tuning.  I'm starting to find my way around the tuning a little and it seems quite intuitive to play.  Here's a little medley I've just recorded to show its versatility (not smooth yet as I've only been paying the tuning for a day!):

 https://soundcloud.com/robin-clark-937720894/example-of-aaeae-tuning-20-jan-16

Tuning the banjo to play in A, I usually tune AEAC#E. For the dulcimer I'd tune to EAE or EAD depending on the tune.

Both of these work for accompanying the fiddle in either standard or cross-tuning (AEAE) for tunes in A.

I built a 10" A scale banjo just to play with fiddle. As you can see it's the same size as a dulcimer. When I started playing fiddle, I retuned in fifths so fingering would match fiddle. Much like octave mandolin, capo to viola or fiddle.

Playing frailing style banjo doesn't sound as good in fifths as with traditional banjo tuning. The haunting sound isn't there.

In fifths I play banjo with a pick mandolin style making it easier to transpose to dulcimer.

WARNING...Yew  piney mountain is a great tune. I spent 4 months last year playing it everyday until I broke the spell. Dwight Diller is  serious about putting rhythm before melody. And you can hear it especially in his fiddle version. He just put out a bunch of really great OT recordings.

Go to Slippery Hill fiddle tune web site. There tunes are listed based on tuning and modes... Robert...

 IMG_20160120_115403_720.jpg - 77KB

Hi Strumelia,

I'm talking about banjo tuning (which is why I put the post in Adventures with Other Instruments).  The tuning is a'AEae  From standard A tuning aEAc#e (g tuning with capo at 2nd fret) the 5th string stays at a'; the 4th string goes down from E to A (quite slack); the 3rd string goes down from A to E (quite slack); the 2nd string goes down from c# to a; the 1st string stays at e.  Basically, the 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st strings are an octave lower than each of the strings on an AEAE cross-tuned fiddle.  It is no different to the Dwight Diller tuning g'GDgd for Yew Piney Mountain, but capo'd up a tone to the key of A - although I could probably get into it without the capo on my banjo.

Randy - Thanks for your dulcimer clip and tunings info.  I expected that you had been all over this tuning for years !

Robin

aAEAE... you are talking about on the banjo?   Tuning the first and third strings both to the same note in the same ocatave?  Tuning the 4th and 2nd strings to the same note in the same octave?   Are you talking about generally in the same octave as standard banjo tuning, or an octave lower?

On the dulcimer I think cross tuning variations of GDGD/AEAE etc is not so unusual?  I'm confused as to whether you are asking about tunings for the banjo or the dulcimer.

Other tunings of the same ilk are:

AEAB - which is the equivilant to double C tuning tuned down to A

AEAc# - open C tuned down

AEAC - A minor

You are probably familiar with these tunings?

Robin

I assume you're tuning down to AA'EAe right? Tuning down to A gives enough room on the top end to get that e note....w/o changing strings.

I use the tuning. I can't remember if I started using it on the dulcimer first or the banjo but it works with both. Good drones!

Here's a tune I posted a few years ago tuned AEAe

It's so cool you got to see Norris Bennett in-person, Ken! 

Glad I could be of help, though unwittingly. Rob.  Hope you're feeling better! 

I know that there are a few good banjo players here on FOTMD and I'm interested if anyone knows more history about or has played banjo in aAEAE tuning basically to match a cross-tuned fiddle.

I stumbled across the tuning yesterday.  last weekend a friend sent me a link to Dwight Diller playing Yew Piney Mountain in gGDGD so I retuned and had a go at catching the tune.  Last night another friend said he played the tune on fiddle so I went round to his place and he had the music (not sure whose version?) in the key of A for cross tuned fiddle AEAE.  So I said I'd simply re-tune my old banjo to match his fiddle and try and play along.  After messing around with the tune for a while I asked what else he could play in cross-tuning.  So we set off on Cripple Creek, June Apple, Cluck Old Hen, OJC, Shady Grove, Buffalo Gals and a couple of others.  What struck me was how simple it was to find those melodies from this banjo tuning (basically it is the same fingering as fiddle or the top two strings on mandolin with drones behind) and, more interestingly, how the tuning 'worked' for major, minor and mixolidian mode tunes because all the open strings were just root and 5th.

In looking on the internet for information on this tuning I found this on Zeppmusic:

aAEAE

A-minor modal tuningShorty Ralph Reynolds, Want to Go to Cuba But I Can't Go Now ( "Old-Time Banjo in America" ). On sleeve notes for this recording, Art Rosenbaum says that Reynolds learned this archaic tuning, dating from the Spanish American War, from his father.

I'm not sure that the description 'A-minor modal tuning' is really correct as the tuning is neither major or minor?  I think it is quite interesting from a traditional dulcimer perspective as I certainly saw opportunities in the tuning because of my experience playing the dulcimer.  If I was an Appalachian fiddler and banjo player I think that I would also drift towards a tuning that would be so familiar to me.

Have any of you used this tuning or have any more information about it?  As I managed to 'accidently' find aAEAE simply because I was sitting in with a cross-tuned fiddler I'm darn sure that many, many other players would have stumbled on it too (I found one guy on banjo hangout who use it).

Robin

ken,

For What It's Worth....  millimeter

Thanks, sorry I don't know all the short cuts for text. Millimeter, wow - you are right, such a small amount. Not sure I could go such a short distance, could end up making things worst.  

Think will more back to my mark I made, try first the john's chime sound and the video posted than leave things be. I will have enough with the pegs for awhile but do want to learn this, just so I will know.

;)

That really was special.  Not just his stories, but his playing style.  He played dulcimer more like a frentic steel guitar with his left hand and strummed like made with his right.

For What It's Worth....  Yes, we're talking moveing the bridge on the order of a millimeter forward at the melody side or back on the bass side.  Such fiddly littl bit, which is why I mostly just leave things alone.

ken,

What is FWlW?

1/8" isn't very far, we are talking very slight adjustments?

Everyones explanations have been great but I wish someone was sitting next to me while I do this. Until I change the strings and get the pegs to set, much less adjusting the bridge - I am a bit hesitant but like Lexie, when I do it, it will be another great step I am taking with the dulcimer.

Yes, john great explanation.

thanks all

Thank you for that detailed explanation. Now I understand.

Been trying to think of the name of that group for 3 days.  Thanks, Robin.  Ken that must have been really interesting to hear him.

Had the great pleasure of being in the Traditional Track at Cullowee several years back, when Norris Bennett, Ebony Hillbillies dulcimer player shared some of his stringband dulcimer playing style and experience with us.  What a great man!

Hi Freddie, please start a new thread in our "For Sale/Wanted" forum here:

http://fotmd.com/forums/forum/for-saleinstruments-music-items-cds-learning-materials-or-wanted-to-buy

...and give it a subject/title something like: "WANTED- Melton style Galax dulcimer"

Thanks!   :)

http://ebonyhillbillies.com

For those who have never heard of The Ebony Hillbillies, a band with a mountain dulcimer, have a look.  Enjoy! 

First thing would have been to mark a pencil line on the fretboard to show the position that Warren placed the bridge in... then go messing about.  That gives you a baseline (all puns inteneded) to go back to when you go too far.  How far is too far.  FWIW 1/8" back on the bass side is probably too far, as is 1/8" on the melody side.

Personally, over time I've found that messing about with intonation wasn't worth the effort, as I really could not heard any difference.  Dulcimers weren't intonated until into the late 1960s or early 70s.  Straight across was good enough for the original builders.  If your ears are particularly sensitive, though, it probably is worthwhile.

Marg, here's the trick to putting the bridge in the right spot. First, tune the melody string up to pitch. Close is OK. Next, with a left-hand finger, touch the string lightly directly over the seventh fret. Play the string and take the finger away quickly. You should get a "chime" sound, called a harmonic. It may take a little practice to get that chime every time. But be sure you are over the fret and not over the fingerboard between the frets. The chime won't work.

Now press the string down normally at the seventh fret and play the string. That note should be the same pitch as the chime. If the fretted note is higher than the chime, slide the bridge back towards the end where the strings are attached. Then check the chime and fretted note again. If the fretted note is lower than the chime, slide the bridge forward towards the fretboard a little and check the two again. You may or may not have to loosen the string(s) to slide the bridge. When the chime and fretted note match, the bridge is in the right place. 

If you are fretting the low string when you play, you may have to adjust the bridge so the low string is in tune, too. After you have the melody string set, check the low string with the chime and the string fretted at the seventh fret. If the fretted note is high, slant the bridge some towards the end where the strings are fastened. You don't want to move the end where the melody string is, just where the low string is. 

If you look carefully at a steel-string guitar, you'll see the bridge saddle where the strings sit is slanted. If the "crooked" appearence bothers you, have a guitar or string repair person reshape your bridge or make a new intonated bridge for you. 

I hope I explained this clearly and that it helps.

You can set the bridge at an angle too. Usually angle it toward the nut on the high d and towards the tailpiece on the low D. Once you get it set it should work in any tuning. Robert...

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast - Episode 10
Howard Rugg:  Master Luthier of CapriTaurus and Early Folk Roots Dulcimers  

Howard Rugg is the master luthier behind the well-known CapriTaurus and early Folk Roots Dulcimers. The thousands of dulcimers built in his workshop are being played all over the world by amateur to accomplished musicians. Howard has recently started making dulcimers again under the name CapriTaurus. With commentary by Lance Frodsham and Laura Devine Burnett. All the music in this episode was played on dulcimers created in Howard’s workshop.

For episode resources:  http://dulcimuse.com/podcast/resource/010.html

Very helpful video. Moved the bridge some to adjust, I'm in DAd now but I haven't gotten the tuning of the pegs down yet so I was only able to come close. I think the bridge won't be as much of a problem as the wooden pegs. I'm please with the first try and everyone's help. Hope with a few more practices the dulcimer will be in tune , set and it holds but now - still having problems with understanding how to with the pegs.

thanks

Well thank you Dusty for posting Pristine2's video. I had gone looking for it and couldn't find it on his site. 

john, if I would go to far and can't get it in tune, do I just go back the other way? How do you know you need to still go a bit more in one direction before going back the other way? But this is only if I am in tune to start and new to pegs, can't say I'm right on but just close.

Too far in either direction will simply put it out of tune again. There's no significant risk of any damage, though. 

For the record, the video I posted above is not by me but by FOTMD member Pristine2.  Some stuff I deserve credit for, but not that.

The Warren May '81 short 'groundhog' dulcimer I just picked up in KY has a floating bridge. I was worried about having pegs for the first time and didn't even know it had a movable bridge till today. Up till watching Dusty's video I was thinking I wouldn't touch it but knew Warren probably set up the dulcimer to DAA so having it tuned to DAd thought I would follow the video's guide. I got things close after a few small adjustments.

QUESTION: How far back or forward can you go? Can you ever go so far back, it's too far?

marg -- I strongly suggest you read the discussioon below on cleaning and adjusting wooden pegs.  It was written by pristine2, and is the best thing I've seen written on the subject.  His extensive explanation is about half way down.

http://www.everythingdulcimer.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32208

http://fotmd.com/pristine2/youtube/389/how-to-adjust-a-movable-bridge-on-a-mountain-dulcimer

This video should explain it, marg.

I still don't know what the intonation is for the small W. May dulcimer but it has a floating bridge and is set for DAA. If I would want to tune to DAd, I was told I may need to adjust the bridge. Any thoughts on this?

Nikolas, I've never had a problem with buzzing on my Walter Messick dulcimer. I took off the melody string on the "outside" and have had no difficulty playing chord melody. I noticed you say you have sta tites for tuners. You say you have the tear drop model. I have an hour glass that has geared tuners. I have never had a problem with them. In fact they are very smooth more so than the open geared tuners on my cardboard. I too have a McSpadden and I have to say that Walter's is just as loud as it. They only difference is that I kept the double melody strings on the McSpadden. I also have to say that when I go to jam my Messick, Cabin Creek, is still my go to instrument. If you had buzzing after purchasing his instrument he is more than willing to make good on it and repair it. 

Sound, space, two different things. Got it.  I do not have a sophisticated ear so I doubt I would hear a difference.

Thank you for the information.

An arched fretboard has no effect on the volume of the box.  It does free up a couple more square inches of top to vibrate.  But unless you have sophisticated instrumentation you'll not hear the different, IMHO.

The fretboard has 5 arches between the nut and strum hollow with an additional arch between the strum hollow and tail. Would that help to boost the internal volume and bass-baritone response? I've heard the arches increase overall volume a bit. Would the arches make it respond like a larger instrument though?

I am back from KY and I did get the Warren May '81 small ground hog dulcimer I was hoping for. I need to put on some new strings and work on understanding the pegs still but as it is - it sounds so very nice and the action is the best of all my dulcimers. 

 1warren may copy.jpg - 247KB

I was not able to log in while I was in KY but now that I am back, I did get the Warren May '81 small ground hog dulcimer. I need to put on some new strings and work on understanding the pegs but as is - it still sounds very nice and the action is the best of all my dulcimers. 

 1warren may copy.jpg - 247KB

The dimensions aren't bad for turning into a baritone, especially the 29" VSL.  Although 3" deep and 6" to 8" wide body would be even better (larger internal volume given a more bass-baritone response.  The heavier strings should not damage anything.  I agree you should stick with a floating bridge.  That simple compensation can make an audible difference.

You're very  welcome.  His video opened my eyes to the floating bridge too.  I found it really helps with the longer VSL's.

Thanks for sending me to the video. Now I understand why that bridge is at an angle instead of straight like the bridge on my other dulcimer.