Forum Activity for @geoff-black

Joe

Looks as though you've got a standard McSpadden "kit" dulcimer from the early 70s - small body, laminated walnut-faced back and sides, walnut top and sta-tite tuners. Certainly not a baritone.

I've had two to work on. Both has similar problems and neither played in tune when I got them. The fretting proved to be spot on (and presumably done in the shop before shipping), but:

(1) No-one seemed to have told the poor end users that the zero fret was the start of the VSL and the wooden "nut" behind it was just a guide which needed deep, deep slots to allow the strings to bear down firmly on the zero fret;

(2) The bridges/saddles were too high.

Effect of (1) is that the intonation was out all the way up because the dulcimers thought they had a longer VSL than they were designed for; of (2), that the strings were sharpened by having to press the strings down too far.

With yours, I'd start by taking down the action drastically (as other have said) and checking that all the strings are not loosely touching the zero fret or vibrating completely freely above it. As I say, I thought the fretboards were very accurate when I got them sorted. Nice sound as well - trebly, not loud, but quite sweet. Just sold the last one a week ago to a very happy customer!

Best of luck

Baritone dulcimers normally have more interior volume than a regular dulcimer, not less . Wider and deeper equals more volume for the same body length. Guess which one you should string as a baritone....

That tangle of strings isn't tooooo bad; I've seen worse. The two far strings should attach to the two far pegs; likewise the near string and near pegs. Yes that is a Zero fret.

Third, that action isn't just "high"... it's OUTA FREAKIN' SIGHT!!!!

As far as fixing the slightly too tall action , I would suggest sanding the bridge down to the bottom of the existing notches -- it can be sanded in place or removed for sanding. Use a flat hardwood sanding block to get a nice flat surface. You can use the melody and bass strings, still attached, as a kind of guide to mark how much to take off after that. Build a much wider temporary bridge, to hold the strings at the proper height at the 7th fret. It can sit in front of the old bridge. Tighten the bass and melody strings on the temp bridge, and them mark where the strings touch the sides of the in-place bridge. Then you can sand/cut the old bridge down to slightly (1/32") higher than the marks. File ( with a triangular needle file), do not saw, new notches. The notches only have to be slightly deeper than the diameter of the strings...

You have the right name for the zero fret. And it definitely sounds like the action is too high. When strings are too high above the frets, they go sharp just pressing them that far to reach the frets. The bridge should slip out of the groove if you loosen the strings. Try lowering it so the strings are no more than 1/8" above the 7th fret. You won't likely need to lower the strings at the nut end, as the zero fret is probably about as low as you would want it to be. If the bridge saddle doesn't slip out fairly easily, it may have been glued. You can file the top of the saddle down to the height you want, but be very careful. It possible, cover the dulcimer with something to protect it from tool damage. I tend to oops when I do this stuff, so I try to cover the parts I don't want covered with file marks, dings, scratches or other marks that produce @#$% language.

Paul

1) You really haven't played it much. I suggest trying a set of new strings,tuning it to a tuning it will hold and you are familiar with playing, and STEP AWAY FROM THE TUNER ! Play it for a few days, and see what your ears think. If you ask a scientist what time it is, you may get an answer such as "7:42 and 13 seconds, P.M., Eastern Daylight time." A poet may tell you "It's that time of day when the trees look like black lace against a fading sky." You have asked the scientist (the tuner), how well it plays in tune. Now pose your question to the poet (your ears.) Who do you wish to please when you play your dulcimer? The tuner, or your ears? If it plays close enough that your ears are pleased, you probably don't need to do anything else but enjoy your new dulcimer. let the tuner do it's necessary job, but only ask it scientific questions. It doesn't know Robert Frost from Helen Steiner Rice. NOTE: I suspect many flesh and blood scientists also know and understand poetry, but none of my electronic tuners have ever exhibited any similar knowledge.

2) A deceased luthier whose work I admired and whose word I trusted told me frets should be within .001" to be truly accurate. He may have been more critical than most, but 1/16" is probably not close enough by any standards. If you measure each fret from the nut/zero fret, they will be more accurate. If you measure each fret from the fret before it, any error gets added to each fret after it. Several small errors can then be compounded into large errors up the fret board. Not knowing who built this dulcimer, we can't ask how, or how accurately, they were measured.

3) Old strings can be hard to tune, and may not play in tune, so a new set may be a good start. If the bridge is movable, carefully positioning it is the next step. If the bridge is not movable, small changes can be made by compensating the saddle. This may be best left to someone with experience, but if the saddle is easily removed from the bridge, a new one can be made at a very small cost if you mess up, so you may want to try compensating it. First make sure it can be easily removed without damaging the fret board or top of the dulcimer. I'll leave compensation adjustments to someone better equipped to explain. I understand the concept, and have seen where it is used on some of my instruments, but have very little experience actually doing the adjustments.

Paul

This dulcimer has a zero fret and not a Nut?

28.375" VSL without the correct gauge strings, would NOT like going up to DAd. Personally I'd start, as JohnP suggests, with new strings put one. one at a time.

Frets accurately spaced to 1/16" -- .0625" may not be accurate enough.

Fretted notes being relatively sharp is not uncommon if the action is too high. Balance a nickel on top of the 7th fret. The strings should just touch it. Put a dime next to the first fret and the strings should just touch it also.

Hi Joe,

Are you still using the old strings ?

I have one a bit like that, it's not too bad with fresh strings on but gets worse as the strings get older.

Other things to look at are -

Does it have a bridge and is it fixed or moveable.

What gauge strings are being used, somewhere between 10 and 12 would be expected on that VSL(scale length)

How high do the strings pass over the frets, should be about the thickness of a coin over the middle fret. A bit less towards the tuner end and a bit more nearer the tail end.

john p

Below are instructions on creating a music listening PLAYLIST from your favorite audio clips on Fotmd...

Hi Marian,

One thing all my teachers have emphasized is to keep your fingers on the strings as much as possible as you play, and that should minimize the choppiness. When I see the dulcimer performers I'm always amazed that they move their fingers so smoothly...looks like they're crawling up and down the fret board.

Good luck, and keep playing.

Doris

Well, the really important thing is that you are hearing the difference. I think that if we can hear when our playing is choppy and really want to make it smooth, we'll find ways to smooth it out. One place to really watch for choppiness is between a pickup note and the rest of the phrase. I'm on a "campaign" (smile) to get dulcimer players sensitized to this particular glitch, and I work very hard myself at avoiding it.

have fun!

Nina

Yes, the more fingers you put into use, the easier it is to have fingers available to smoothly transition between notes. So, using thumb on melody helps a lot. I also use my PINKY a LOT on the melody string. So, basically, I'm playing the melody much of the time with my pinky and thumb; that leaves three fingers (ring, middle, index) to negotiate all the other notes. Another strategy that adds a bit of sustain to notes is to use vibrato.

Nina

A follow up, because I do think that smooth playing can go a long way to making dulcimer playing sound beautiful:

a) Another great way to connect the notes is to slide from one to the next. Not on every note, but I remember once LInda Brockinton telling me that she "slides all the time", and that helped me think more about playing smoothly.

b) Another analogy that I use with my workshop classes is to think "glue fingers": keep each finger down until absolutely necessary to lift it up. And, by "down" I mean close to the wood. The result will be that you'll be making your dulcimer "sign", with the notes very connected, as in vocal music (or violin music).

c) Recording yourself, even tho' yes it makes us all nervous, is a wonderful way to hear where the "gaps" are.

d) One final suggestion: to see this technique of "glue fingers", you might try going to you tube and watching videos of folks who make it a priority to put this smooth ("legato") style in their playing. Plenty of good dulcimer players do, but Linda Brockinton and Janita Baker come to mind (and, oh OK, my own vids will show it, too). A guitarist who does this beautifully, and really makes his guitar "sing" is El McMeen.

Happy playing!

Nina

Marion--The EXACT same thing happened to me at the same time in my learning (and I have not been playing long)--I,too, posted the question (but not as well). Nina Zanetti has explained above exactly what I was doing wrong. Also, I found that I was extra choppy because I hit "record" and became nervous.

On a completely unrelated note (generally-speaking), after I improved my fingering so that the notes were ringing properly, I switched to noter/drone almost exclusively in my learning. I found that I really liked the traditional sound and to have a drone along with the melody more to my liking. Not to say that is what you would experience, but since one of my favorite players responded above, I thought that I would throw that in there. Happy Playing!

Marian; please post a sound clip so we can tell what you mean by "choppy". As mentioned, it could be several things. But with only a two month learning period, you may have opted for quantity (number of songs) over quality (several technical glitch possibilities). If we hear you we can better help you sort it out.

Hi, I just saw this post , and it seemed to me that maybe by "choppy" you meant that there were little gaps between the notes, as tho' the sound of each note was being stopped rather than sustained. If that's what you meant, then I think the problem is more a matter of left hand technique than strumming. That is, it could be how you are fretting the notes, or- more to the point- what you do with your LH once you have played a note. With the dulcimer, after you've played a note, the tone starts to die off. But, the tone will completely stop if you lift your LH finger off of the position on the string. In fact (and this is important), the tone will stop completely even if you keep your LH finger in contact with the string, but if you lighten the pressure so much that the string lifts up from the fret. I've seen people do this, and what's happening is that they are inadvertently "muting" the strong after they play the note. It's the technique that we might use intentionally to produce "chop chords", i.e. when we WANT the sound of a chord stop abruptly. But, in song-like, sustained tunes, we want to the notes to flow smoothly, one note connected to the next. Again, the important thing is this: if you lift up your LH finger enough so that the string no longer contacts the fret (I think of it as contacting the wood of the fretboard), then you will have created a gap in the tone, and there will be silence until the next note is plucked.

Any chance this is what you're experiencing? If so, you've taken the first step to correcting the problem, which is to be aware of it! If you can hear those "gaps", then you at least know where you need to connect or smooht out the notes. Next step is to figure out how. The trick: never lift a LH finger (that has just played a note) until it is absolutely necessary. So, you'd never want to the finger (LH) of the note that's just been played until you set down the finger (LH) of the next note. Janita Baker gives a wonderful analogy of dancing: one foot always has to touch the floor/ one finger always has to remain pushing down the string. This takes practice, but is a habit well worth developing, if you want to have your playing sound smooth and song-like. If you are playing chords or across the strings, it's really good practice to hold down any note as long as possible, sometimes holding down a note on one string while you move a different finger to a new place on a different string.

Hard to explain all this in writing, but hope this helps some. Feel free to ask more questions.

Nina

www.ninazanetti.com

Well the good news is that you have noticed!!!!

The bad news is that there are no shortcuts You just need lots and lots of practice like Robin T said above. Strumming is a very complex skill - it is physically difficult and musically difficult and it is the most important aspect of your playing. If you are not struggling with strumming, then you are not pushing yourself hard enough. I always struggle to get my right hand exactly how I want it. When I learn a new tune I'm constantly trying tofathom outhow I should be working my right hand and I'll try differnt picks, grips, and rhythm patterns until I'm happy.

Howdy, Marian. What Robin said is a great way to get the rhythms ingrained in your system (so to speak.) Another thing which may help is to pat your foot at a steady beat (or use a metronome set to a fairly slow tempo.) Strum out in out in on each beat (pat of your foot or click of metronome.) When you're steady and clean with that, then strum out in for each beat. Do each of them 16 times before starting to play as a warm up, gradually getting faster, but not so fast you lose the steady rhythm.

Enjoy

Rob

Hi, Marian! To me, strumming is the most important aspect of dulcimer play. Thus, it takes time to settle-in to learning how to strum and feel comfortable strumming. (I'm always working on my strum and I've been playing about 6 years.)

I suggest this exercise: Put on any music you enjoy. With your left hand, mute the strings. With your right hand, experiment strumming rhythms with the music. It really helps one get a feel for rhythm and, over time, your strumming will improve.

Happy strummin'!

Gene, it's beautiful! Hope you get many years of enjoyment out of it.

wavy I like it. Ya got a nice one there. How the voice?

Linda, can you explain exactly what you are trying to convert?

If it is only the melody, there is a pretty easy method that is described by Linda Brockinton in the Music Theory group where you just number the notes according to scale position. If you are trying to convert chords, then you just need a chord chart to show you where to find the right chords on the dulcimer, and not conversion is needed.

If you are trying to convert an entire arrangement you may have difficulties, since a guitar is chromatic, meaning your dulcimer may not have all the notes needed, a guitar has greater tonal range than a dulcimer since the open strings span two octaves rather than one, and the guitar can play more notes at a time since there are six strings as opposed to the three on the dulcimer.

Ok, I made a mistake above. Fretboard Road Maps isn't what you want. I was thinking they were charts showing what notes were at what frets. They kinda are, but more on the order of patterns for improvising. What you need is a chart of all the notes on a guitar fret board, so you can see what note a tab is showing when it gives a string and fret number. A finger board chart, like this one: http://egalo.com/guitar-fretboard-visualization-chart-with-note-names.pdf

This can be downloaded, and printed. I have seen these for sale at music stores, as well. You set it on your desk and learn your way around the finger board. For converting guitar tab to dulcimer, you look up each note in the guitar tab, write down it's name, and locate that note on the dulcimer. You will need a chart showing the dulcimer fret board as well, some dulcimer books have a few charts, at least for one or two tunings used in the book.

Once you have identified the notes, and located their position on a dulcimer chart, mark them on a blank dulcimer Tab sheet. You can keep all the bar, timing, and other info from the guitar tab as it doesn't change. Try a simple song, such as Frere' Jacques, Hot Cross Buns, or London Bridge. Play the new tab and let your ears tell you if you have made any mistakes. If it doesn't work in an ionian tuning, try mixolydian, then aeolian and dorian. Give us a full report of your findings. You have until the end of the semester to complete your work, and this will go in your permanent record. And bring enough chewing gum for everyone.

Paul

Ok, in doing a quick search on youtube I see there are no dulcimer versions of this yet on youtube. There is a great tutorial on a tin whistle though. I've watched this girl before because I'm learning that instrument too. But, the whistle is a D whistle so you can literally copy the notes by sound. You could play the lower notes and it would sound great. Here's the vid if you want to try it My Heart Will Go On - D whistle

Heck i really love that song too and may try it on whistle and dulcimer.

Hey Linda,

This is an idea. Have you ever tried to pick out a tune (a simple version of it) on the dulcimer? You would really be surprised at how it's not as hard as you really think. Picking out simple versions of tunes will allow you to add in filler notes that compliment those simple notes also. I have ZERO music theory. I have no clue the names of any chords or notes on the dulcimer, but I can pick out simple tunes and spice them up a bit. Here's how I would go about it if I were you.

First see if there are any dulcimer vids out there already of that particular song. If so, if you like the arrangement try to mimic it by watching their hands or listening to what is being played. If I can see round about where someone is on the fretboard I can usually pick it out. If there aren't any dulcimer vids, then I would either listen to the actual song or a vid of someone playing the tune (on any instrument) where you like the arrangement.

Then if you can get a few notes here and there you can start to fill out in front and behind the ones you are sure of just by trial and error. In my opinion you will get so much more satisfaction out of picking out a tune yourself vs. reading some tab. Tabs are great, but they are limiting IMO. I feel so much more freedom doing it this way, but I do still sometimes use tabs for certain parts of songs (knowing that I will change them to suit me).

Good luck and I hope this helps a bit.

Yeah, except for the little 'nag screen' that pops up each time you open the program, the free version of TablEdit is pretty useful. Easy to just close the nag screen each time before you start to work in the program.

FWIW, there is a free download of a (limited) TablEdit version here: http://www.tabledit.com/download/index.shtml that may be of some use to you...

thanks for the information Paul. I need to sit down and re-read this to soak in all the information.

Is there a certain guitar tab you have in mind, or are you asking for a general concept of this fret on guitar equals that fret on a dulcimer?

Guitar tab is usually lead parts, not chords. The lead may be melody, but more often is an improvised solo part. The real problem with converting it to a dulcimer tab is dulcimers don't have near the range of a guitar. Low parts would have to be moved up an octave to fit on a dulcimer. High parts could not be moved up an octave because the guitar can come up at least as far as the dulcimer. The relocated low parts then will not be quite in relation to their guitar counterparts, but it can be done. It would be best to move a whole section, rather than just certain low notes.

Converting may work, if the solo is not too far outside a certain key. If the guitarist makes a lot of use of out of key chords, the notes of a solo reflect those chords. They have to, to harmonize. For a dulcimer to play this note for note, it may be necessary to use a chromatic dulcimer. CAUTION: OPINIONATED CONTENT! It seems to me it would be better to create a dulcimer solo, rather than try to convert one from guitar. But that's just an opinion, and creating new solos may not be what every player likes to do.

Look for a guitar chart called "Fret board Road Map". It shows what note is at what fret, assuming standard guitar tuning. If the guitarist is using a different tuning, there may be a chart for it, I really don't know. I never bought them. In standard tuning, the 4th string on the guitar is tuned to D, the same D as our bass string if we tune to DAA, or DAD. The 3rd string is G, same as we use for DGD tuning. The second string is B, one tone above our A middle string, and the 1st string is E, one tone above our D melody string in DAD. The tricky stuff starts on the guitars 5th string, where we can't reach any notes below the guitars 5th fret. The 5th is tuned to A, an octave below our middle string. The 6th is E, almost an octave below our bass string. If you have a tab in mind, the starting point is to decide what key it's in, and see if it changes keys or modes. Hopefully, we can find a dulcimer tuning we can use for it.

Paul

Linda -- the problem often is that guitar tab only gives 'accompaniment chords' (one chord per measure for example), not melody chords (one chord for each note of a melody) the way dulcimer tab is written. Creating dulcimer tab from Standard Music Notation is relatively easy and straightforward.

Put the tune in TablEdit, then change from guitar to dulcimer as the instrument. The dulcimer part [module] would be missing notes because of being diatonic. I've done it, but I set up a custom chromatic dulcimer module in TablEdit. This allows me to get to a 3 string form which then can be modified to the various tunings.

The woman I bought it from has several instruments she plays but the whistles and concertinaare her passion. She had,had this dulclimer custom made for her by Allen Wood but she said she didn't play it very often. You can tell it hadn't been it is in fantastic condition. I told her about KMW and some of the other festivals and she is excited about maybe coming to some of them. I hope she does.

I sometimes frown when I see such sales and the prize asked for it. $ 100 is okay when it is not wanted by the seller, but under the $ 25 I always wonder if the seller is the rightful owner... Sure, I didn't saw the face

At the other hand, I sometimes get instruments cheap because the owner is pleased I can play it... Also for nothing at all! Those lucky moments

Wout

Holy cow Dana, what a SCORE!!! And the jimbow too. Dang girl that is awesome! I love that she pulled out a tin whistle and ya'll played some. The universal language of music will make friends for you! Great find and great story!

Great story Dana ... one that memories are made of. I bet you have a relationship with the German lady like no one else ... an' that's a GOOD thing!

Dana R. McCall said:

LOL I'm pretty good at fiddlin around just don't know about with a jimbow.

@ Sam, Sam I do love making new friends, my husband says I never meet an enemy. Once a friend of mine years ago that was German and her mother was still in Germany. He mom was going to visit, so when she got here a lot of us got together, I said Hi to her and started talking to her, she would nod her head and say Ya Ya , I thought she was agreeing with everything I had to say LOL. soon a crowd was gathering around us and I saw a lot of snickers and giggles . In a few her daughter Linda came up to me and said Dana Mom doesn't speak a word of English . I was flabbergasted , I said well we were having a heck of a conversation !Needless to say we got along great I did all the talking and she did all the listening HAHA I took her for a ride in my little green dunebuggy and she had a ball, we understood each other on a different level, we enjoyed laughing and having fun .

LOL I'm pretty good at fiddlin around just don't know about with a jimbow.

@ Sam, Sam I do love making new friends, my husband says I never meet an enemy. Once a friend of mine years ago that was German and her mother was still in Germany. He mom was going to visit, so when she got here a lot of us got together, I said Hi to her and started talking to her, she would nod her head and say Ya Ya , I thought she was agreeing with everything I had to say LOL. soon a crowd was gathering around us and I saw a lot of snickers and giggles . In a few her daughter Linda came up to me and said Dana Mom doesn't speak a word of English . I was flabbergasted , I said well we were having a heck of a conversation !Needless to say we got along great I did all the talking and she did all the listening HAHA I took her for a ride in my little green dunebuggy and she had a ball, we understood each other on a different level, we enjoyed laughing and having fun .

I suspect that anyone you meet will very likely become a friend. How could they not?

Lisa the woman I bought the dulcimer from brought out her penny whistle and a larger one she had and we played afew songs on her porch. It was fun and I made a new friend.

Hey Geekling, It was you with the jimbow not mandy. I'm going to have to figure out how to use it. :)

Geekling said:

Wow, Dana, you scored againthat's gorgeous! And it's so great that it came with a case and a JimBow! I hope you enjoy your new JimBow as much as I'm enjoying mine! At any rate, you found a unique dulcimer at a terrific pricehow cool is that? I can't wait to hear it!

That's a great story Ben

Benjamin W Barr Jr said:

Definitely a keeper and a heck of a find. It's sort of how I got my first dulcimer. I stopped at a flea market and this dulcimer was sitting on a table and the wind was actually making music on the strings. I had never seen nor heard of one at the time. The fellow selling it gave me a brief rundown of how he came on it and asked if $30 was a fair price...he said he had bought it for $20. I replied for someone who knows the instrument it probably is. I then started to walk away and he asked if I had $25 for it. I thought for a couple of seconds and figured that if I didn't like it, I could probably get my money back from selling it. Well, I still have that dulcimer!

Cool find! The only one I've seen "in the wild" was at a pawn shop in North Carolina, but the staff was too busy visiting and drinking coffee to offer any assistance to customers. Congrats on your find!