Forum Activity for @terry-wilson

Is This Common

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Richard, sometimes my left hand would shake so bad, it was downright embarrassing.

Time seems to heal 'Bout everything.

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

As Bridge just hinted at with his 'gut feeling' comment, the problem here could be that you are expecting equal temperament sounds on an older dulcimer that may have been fretted in just temperament.  This would result in an instrument that not only sounds badly intonated when in DAd tuning, but even in DAA tuning when chording it across all strings.

Our member Robin Clark has written extensively over on the ED forums about equal vs. just tempered scales on older dulcimers.  I don't know how much you guys already know or don't know about this subject, but here are a few of Robin's posts on it over on ED (which will sadly shut down at the end of this month):

http://everythingdulcimer.com/discuss/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=6698

There are also a lot of great discussions here on FOTMD concerning the equal vs. just temperament factor with older dulcimers:

https://fotmd.com/search/results/all/1/25?search_string=just+temperament

One thing I would say is that many folks wind up thinking their old dulcimer was improperly fretted and they proceed to pull out all the original frets and refret it in equal temperament. This is a disservice to irreplaceable older dulcimers and will immediately and severely devalue them forever (that's assuming they were not actually badly fretted by an inexperienced maker).  If one needs an equal tempered scale due to how one wants to play (intended repertoire, playing style, tunings), one would do far better to simply use a more modern equal-intonated dulcimer.  The old just-intonated dulcimer fret spacings sound sweeeeet when you play noter style in ionian tuning, as they were designed to be played.  

Again, I do NOT know if a just temperament is the cause for the frets being 'out of tune' in this instance, and I don't know anyone's expertise or knowledge level here.  But any time an old dulcimer is involved and thought to be badly fretted, the intended fret scale should be high up on the list of factors.  

I'm hoping Robin Clark will jump in here, since he has done a lot of research and experimentation on the subject.

Group sync

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Except for playing along with my son and grandson in our home, I've never had the opportunity to play in a group that included guitars and banjos.

But twice I drove around 100 miles to play with a club, that included a harmonica player and two ukuleles, and perhaps eight dulcimer players.

This worked really well. My take on things, was there was no instrument that drowned out the dulcimers.

There was one guy, who was really good, sat where all could see him. He was playing a self built banjo dulcimer, that he mufflered. With this, most all kept the same timing and beat.

Group sync

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Thanks for the suggestions, We had a practice Tuesday with 14 players and the four guitars were side by side, with the 10 dulcimer players in a tight circle inside. Even with the new songs we tried, it worked very well

Bill R

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@jim-hedman     Jim, I am once again grateful for your help on this. I have been swamped with tasks these last two days, but I should be able to look into this in the afternoon. My gut feeling is that they guys who made these instruments knew exactly what they were doing and why. Some of us latter day dulcimists are demanding different things from the instrument and just don't quite grasp what they were doing. The action on my tulip is just about where it should be and slightly lower than some dulcimers I have seen. It's about the same as my McSpadden M12w. I'll contact you in a few hours.

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@bridge

Bridge, your reply inspired me to fast track an examination of a near-mint Maxwell I recently acquired (see attached photo).  After replacing the notoriously high Maxwell nut and bridge with a trial walnut nut and bridge providing more reasonable action I tested the intonation at one and two octaves and in both cases the pitch was within a cent or two of the open string pitch (it runs somewhat sharp with the original stratospheric Plexiglas ones).  Overall intonation did not noticeably improve however - the lower frets were quite flat, although there was some improvement as one approached the seventh fret.  Does this have a familiar ring? {pun intended}

Well, it seemed a good exercise to dope out nut and fret placement errors.  The attached Excel file (zipped) shows the results of those efforts.  Hopefully, you are enough of a geek to ferret out that for this particular dulcimer the required nut and bridge adjustment for "correction" is impractical and the residual random fret placement errors (now sharp and flat) would still be troublesome even if attempted.

I'll be dealing with this dulcimer and its five-string brother in a future dedicated thread, so I won't be going into any specifics here.  I'll see if I can find the data derived from my Carstanjen courting dulcimer as an example of where this nerdy exercise pays off.  Hopefully, the results of your exercise will be in the promising vein should you attempt to pursue it (that "zero fret" might be a deal-break though).

updated by @jim-hedman: 05/03/18 06:28:03AM

NDD - McSpadden 26 vsl (thumbs up)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've moved this thread to our "Instruments- specific features, luthiers, etc" forum since it will be helpful to others seeking shorter scale/vsl McSpaddens in the future.  I also removed a few posts that were veering into different directions in a non-constructive way.  Thanks, and carry on!  

updated by @strumelia: 05/02/18 05:11:57PM

Is This Common

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I get the same way. I'm sure it is mostly nervousness. I get the same way when I try to record something. I could know it like the back of my hand, but as soon as I hit the record button something is bound to fall apart.

Is This Common

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

i have played Renaissance Faires since 94 (hammer dulcimer.... since retired). i found when ever i though about what i was playing i would screw up so i just try to blank my mind and let muscle memory take over.... not always easy to blank your mind.

pretty soon your mind sez... hey your doing good on this one... and then comes the clunker.

audio input will do that to you too.

 

however i never really like playing with big groups of people though at times i was forced to. i think when you have 10-20 people playing the same tune all playing lead it may sound peculiar ...

Is This Common

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Very common.  You might be right that it is all the distractions that affect your concentration. But I think, as Ken suggests, that it might just be a nervousness that comes from playing with or in front of others.  Sometimes when I perform I think I'm fine but find that my fingers get a bit jittery and its clear that I'm really nervous.

If its the auditory distractions that cause you trouble, you might consider playing commercial radio when you practice so you get used to ignoring the talking heads and commercial jingles and focus just on your playing.

Is This Common

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Yep -- sorta "performance anxiety"

Is This Common

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I have difficulty playing in a group, our club, jams etc. It seems there is too much auditory input and I lose my concentration or place in the music. Songs I can play passably well at home in practice fall to pieces in a group. Is this common?

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@jim-hedman   Jim, thank you very much for this detailed response. Some very useful info here. I will spend some time with the dulcimer and get back to you when I have gathered the appropriate information.

Cigar Box Guitars

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

here is a better one.... the headstock would be pointing down...

Cigar Box Guitars

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

like this...

NDD - McSpadden 26 vsl (thumbs up)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Although there is no excuse for poor workmanship, dulcimers are unique among string instruments in that they have two popular fretting setups. Old time traditional dulcimers are fretted in Just intonation. This setup is ideal for 155 tuning like Daa but won't play in tune in ddaD. Equal tempered setups are like guitars etc. And will play in 158 like ddaD and don't sound as well in 155. Before you toss your dulcimer be sure you know which setup you have... Robert

Pick paranoia!

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've settled on large, straight-edged, thinish triangle picks as my favorites for dulcimer. I also drill a hole in the center to improve the grip. I'm mostly a strum and noter player and like the slapping sound a thin pick makes on the strings. This works fine when playing with others. 

But most my playing is alone and for myself. So usually I use the side of my thumb to brush the strings fairly lightly. A sweet and mellow sound. It isn't hard to brush in both directrions, so all the interesting rhythms are possible. 

And I always know where my thumb is. Not always true with picks!

Cigar Box Guitars

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Nice work, jp. 

McSpadden Baritone Dulcimers

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@noah-coy-barfield , I should have pointed out that we have a whole group here devoted to the Baritone dulcimer . You might consider joining and checking out the conversations there.

Cigar Box Guitars

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

they fret less ..... but with wood burned markers on the side of the neck. fretted Chromatically like a guitar

McSpadden Baritone Dulcimers

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

My baritone isn't a McSpadden, but I just wanted to mention that baritones (with a quality build, like McSpadden and Folkcraft) have a beautiful voice. I really enjoy playing my songs with the baritone to give a while new sound. I'm betting you'd love a McSpadden baritone.

McSpadden Baritone Dulcimers

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks, Dusty!  The video clip really helped!

McSpadden Baritone Dulcimers

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

By the way, I moved this discussion to the Forum on Specific Luthiers so that it would be more easily located later on instead of getting lost in the General Music category.

McSpadden Baritone Dulcimers

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@noah-coy-barfield, I had a McSpadden baritone for about a year that I had to sell when I was making another dulcimer purchase that I couldn't really afford. It was a wonderful instrument, with a strong, deep voice.  Here is the video I posted when I was obliged to sell it: 

.  Once I start talking a bunch you can stop watching, but I play a fingerpicking tune and two flatpicking tunes, so you can hear what it sounds like.  

One nice thing about McSpaddens is that they keep their value pretty well.  And they are always well made (unless you get one made from a kit, and then you never know!).

updated by @dusty: 05/01/18 08:28:40PM

McSpadden Baritone Dulcimers

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to playing the dulcimer.  I currently have a couple of standard length McSpadden dulcimers--one from 2013 and one from 1973.  I'm thinking about getting a baritone or bass dulcimer at some point in order to sing along with (I have a deep voice).

Does anyone have any experience with McSpadden's baritone dulcimers?  If so, was it a positive or negative experience?  

Thanks!

 

Noah

Cigar Box Guitars

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Beautiful work!  Did you fret them more like a dulcimer or like a guitar?

Pick paranoia!

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Don't limit yourselves with only "store bought" picks.  I've had some good success making picks from plastic lids from microwavable bowl type meals and the plastic packaging from various other products.

Happiness in a new song

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I know you have, but I will still ask the question.  Have you ever learned a new song and discovered some real happiness, and joy?  I did.

About two week ago I began learning two new songs, both of which I should have learned years prior.  I don't really know why not.

I recently purchased a new songbook from Linda W Collins, "Beyond the Basics: A Songbook."

While going over the songbook I discovered these two songs, listened to them on you tube, and began learning the songs.   Okay! Okay!  Tell us the two songs!

First:  Lisa Jane;  Second: Goin'Down to Cairo.   Then I discovered both could be played as one song.  So I learned the music and words, confidently enough to play out, Sat for a senior church group and this morning at an Assisted Living Home.  

I am hear to tell you, this joint adventure in song went over fantastic.  I received the best response from this song, better than any other.   Lots of clapping and smiling.  "That's what I am talking about", kind of stuff.   Loads of fun.

So I would say, to anyone who plays out, if you haven't already, add this one (or two), to your reportoire.   Even though it's not a Gospel song, its a "clean" song, and the folks will love it.  And you will too.

updated by @terry-wilson: 10/27/19 12:02:25PM

NDD - McSpadden 26 vsl (thumbs up)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I agree, I've had quite a few dulcimers from other builders who missed the mark on intonation. They needed to go to new homes. I'm very particular about the tone and intonation of an instrument. I have 4 dulcimers now that are all excellent that will be keepers.

Pick paranoia!

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I managed to get to a local music shop. I picked up 17 different picks. None of them are fancy ones, but I got a variety of weights. I do seem to like the heavier picks a lot better. I'll probably keep adding to the collection and figure out which ones are my favorites.

Thanks Greg! I have a standard BL (also custom) that is an amazing instrument - love it. But I would like the longer scale, slimmer body, for my noter/drone. Yes, it's hard to find a used BL :-)

Jill, good luck in your search for a Jean Ritchie model Blue Lion.  I presently own two Blue Lion dulcimers, a Jean Ritchie model and an Acoustic Jam Baritone model, both were customized to have a single melody string and only three strings total.  I had to wait several months until my name came up on the build list, but they are exceptional instruments and well-worth the wait.  Blue Lion dulcimers are greatly valued by their owners and are seldom available as used instruments.  If you find one available used, don't hesitate in purchasing it.  It won't be for sale for long.

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Bridge, I was in a similar fix with my Carstanjen courting dulcimer.  An invaluable tool for doping out the intonation problems was this fret position calculator:  http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/fret.htm#mozTocId169477.  There are a number of calculators on that web page.  The one you want is titled "Calculating Fret Spacing for All Frets".

The calculator is set up for a chromatic fret board so the fret numbers are actually semi-tones and you'll have to adjust to accommodate the diatonic scaling of your fret board (e.g. the first fret is 2 semi-tones, the second is 4 semi-tones, the third is 5 semi-tones etc.).  The equivalents for the first octave are as follows: 1~2, 2~4, 3~5, 4~7, 5~9, 6~10, and 7~12.

The StewMac web site has a similar fret position calculator ( http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator) that additionally provides fret to fret measurements. With this calculator you can specify "dulcimer" as a parameter input and doing so will restrict the output to the diatonic scale of your instrument - well, except it includes the 6+ fret which it labels fret #7 and calls the octave fret #8.  An advantage of this calculator is that it is easy to cut and paste your data output into a spreadsheet or print out.

For the "scale length" (i.e. VSL) measure the distance from the zero-fret to the seventh fret and multiply by two, which will give you the uncompensated VSL for the instrument.  Adjusting the bridge position by finding a true octave at the seventh fret gives you a compensated VSL that factors in the effect of the string tension increase caused by the act of depressing the string to the fret.  A compensated VSL will be slightly larger than an uncompensated VSL and it is the latter that we want to work with - at least for now.

Once you've entered the VSL measure the distance from the nut (or zero-fret) to each of the seven frets and compare them with the calculated values and look for discrepancies (i.e. errors).  The seventh fret VSL will of course be spot on automatically because that measure was the parameter used to determine our scale length input. What we want to look for is a pattern in the errors for frets 1 through 6.  For example, do all errors in frets 1 to 6 come up short?  I suspect they would if frets 1 to 6 play flat as you described.

Where we go from here is dependent upon the error findings and to cover all possible outcomes and remedies would make this reply overly long (if it is not already).  So if I've tweaked your interest, provide feedback on what you find and I'll try to dope out a solution - if there is one.

If you use Excel or another spreadsheet program, that would be a good vehicle for keeping your notes and for doing some later data manipulation, hopefully leading to a solution of the intonation issue(s).

 

updated by @jim-hedman: 05/01/18 06:22:42AM

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Could it had had the frets set by ear, rather than tuner -- say Just Intonated?  I've seen several "tulip" dulcimers from that era.  I think Wilfred in Germany has one, and there's one pictured in one of the early books -- Michael Murphy's Dulcimer Book perhaps or the early edition of the Mel Bay Learn To Play (I don't have them handy)

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

This is cool.

I did however, move this thread to the "Instruments- luthiers/instruments Forum because it's about a specific maker and the issues effecting the instrument's playability.  

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

what do they call that body style Rob ? is it a flying V ?

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@rob-n-lackey

@ken-longfield

I just pulled it out and experimented. I have been positioning the bridge so that when you play the octave fret the note sounded is one octave higher using a digital tuner (and my ear). When I have that satisfied and play notes up the fret board, they are flat until I reach the octave fret I used to position the bridge. It would seem that the frets are not the proper distance from the zero fret, but I'm finding that hard to believe give the general quality of the instrument. The strings are all properly seated and are vibrating between the zero fret and the fret serving as the bridge.

I wondered if string gauge and tension might have an effect, but I don't think so. The bass string is a .023, and it acts the same as the unwound strings. The action is properly set and not so high as to affect the note sounded (and it would also be sharp, not flat). At the first fret, I have to bend the string about 1/8" to bring it up to the proper pitch. I've recently read an online article about different tuning "modes" and some of it went over my head. The writer was talking about some notes being flat or sharp when "in tune." Couldn't quite wrap my head around that one, but it seemed authoritative!  ;-)

updated by @bridge: 04/30/18 08:14:38PM

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

From what I can tel from the photos, the first piece of metal after the peg head is a Zero fret. The next is one and so on. Measure the distance from the middle of the zero fret to the middle of the seventh fret, double it and you have the place where the bridge (in this case another fret) should be. It is difficult to see, but do the strings pass along the slots in the tail piece? It was also constructed before the 6 1/2 fret became popular, so I would place it nearer to 1963 than, say, 1975.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Interesting instrument.  I don't know either if it's a tulip or lyre, but my money's on tulip.  I know where Volga is, but don't know anyone who lives there.  In fact, it's not far from here in Barbour County.  I have an hourglass made in the county seat of Barbour Co. and it's 4 independent strings as well.  Have you started with the bridge set the same distance from the 7th fret as from the nut to the 7th and see how close the intonation is.

 

4 equidistant strings/McCarty tulip dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@rob-n-lackey

This might be better posted in another forum, but this topic line fits it perfectly. These are photos of a West Virginia 4-equidistant-string dulcimer I recently bought in Cleveland, OH for $75 while visiting my son. I'm not sure if it is supposed to represent a lyre of a tulip! I cleaned it up and put some standard strings on it. Sounds nice, and "shimmering" seems to fit it. The label inside it reads as follows:

No. #33

Russell W. McCarty

Volga, W. Va.

I've done some light investigation on the web, and I believe I have located some members of Mr. McCarty's family, but I have not yet tried to contact them.

Based upon my limited experience, this seems to be a pretty unusual instrument. I don't know how old it is, but it must have been constructed after 1963 and before people started printing labels on computers since the address contains a zip code and the label was done on a typewriter.

Since restringing the instrument, I have not been able to get it to play properly. The bridge is adjustable fore and aft, and I can get it to sound the right notes at the octave or middle fret, but it is as if the frets are not spaced properly when you play up and down the fretboard. As I go up the fretboard, the notes are flat until I hit the octave fret. I do NOT believe the instrument is improperly constructed, but I have yet to figure out why it seems to be so far off. I haven't really spent much time on it, and I might even be using the wrong fret for positioning the bridge if it doesn't have half frets. There are some very small pin holes that seem to hint at where the bridge should be placed; they are obviously there for that reason.

Anyway, that's a project I am working on.

I've posted below a link to some photos at the Google Photo site. I've made them accessible to all, but I may remove that link if I find that it compromises my my security there. First time I have done this...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YtZR1fFgw4fSkJ9R6

updated by @bridge: 04/30/18 07:27:03PM