This topic comes up every couple of months and always ends up as a stalemate. Some swear you can and some swear you can't.....and some just swear. And now we can't agree on what constitutes a fair and equitable test! Funny!
I've never weighed in on the subject but have some winter downtime somewhat random thoughts on it.
First off, I don't have a good ear for this type of thing and can't tell the difference between a teardrop and an hourglass.
But of course there are people who can.
A couple of extreme examples who come to mind are Antonio Stradivarius, in the 1700's, and Lloyd Loar, in the 1920's. They built violins and mandolins, respectively, and refined the shape and sound of their instruments and no one has been able to better their designs. I think they'd have the god given ability to detect acoustical differences in the shape of dulcimers.
But I don't believe you have to be a world renowned acoustician to tell the difference. Mark Gilston, John Keane and Ken Bloom are three who I think can. And there are others. I'd put a little bit of money on Dwain Wilder and Richard Latker.
Can a dulcimer builder adjust an hourglass shape to have some of the acoustical properties of a teardrop? Sure. And vice versa.
I remember when I got my first dulcimer after playing guitar for a few years and I thought "how can that thing work"? It has a big fingerboard running over the top of the soundboard. What a poor way of transmitting sound. But we all know it works. But we don't know how it works yet.
Someone will come along one of these days and figure it out, and hopefully will have the personality and communication skills to let us in on it.
It doesn't make sense to me either way, in such a small test with other things not being equal in the two dulcimers being used. If only using two dulcimers, then all other factors really must be identical for it to mean anything (which is practically impossible). If using a dozen or more dulcimers that are very very similar, then perhaps an outcome might have more meaning. With all due respect...I just don't see how this particular test can actually prove anything one way or another. But hey, I hope folks have fun with it anyway!
Ah, but you see, that has been the brag from several people all along -- regardless of other variables these people claimed they could distinguish an hourglass from a teardrop. So that's how I designed the test. Not a dozen McSpads of different shapes. Not trad vs modern volumes, not VSL. At least once a year someone says "I can tell an hourglass from a teardrop." Can you?
I have to say I agree with Dusty on this. Too many uncontrolled variables.
All these questions about VSL, wood type, instrument design, kind of noter, etc., get to the central point: given the vast number of variables that affect the sound a dulcimer makes, it is impossible in practice to identify the shape of the box as the sole reason for differences in tone.
Yeah... well, unfortunately I don't have a dozen instruments.... Eleven dulcimers playing the same one tune would make an interesting test...
Question is - can you tell from SHAPE alone.
Nothing to do with wood, builder, tune, player, home fret, size etc. etc.
The test is poorly designed if only two instruments are being used, there should be a dozen or more.
And played in the same position along the VSL ?
So....how's this going? Were the teardrop and hourglass dulcimers the same brand and same woods?
It's a coded message from the Militant Manatee Coalition.... one of their representatives was down by my friend's boat that day!
Yeah, just got some alien sound I didn't really understand, soundedlike 'salgro'. Probably means 'you're going to guess wrong' or 'gotch ya'.
Strumelia said: Skip, maybe that's just a subliminal message...like the Beatles' "Paul is Dead" thing... Have you tried playing it backwards? 
You're welcome Ken, I was interested in the comparison.
Ayup. There's a glitch there... Gotta have my tech guy look into it.... Only supposed to be one tune per cut and no talking! I checked all the other cuts and they only have one song per file. Thanx for listening, Skip!
Skip, maybe that's just a subliminal message...like the Beatles' "Paul is Dead" thing... Have you tried playing it backwards?
Skip said:
Ken the first one someone says 'hourglass' at the end of the tune, just before starting the 2nd tune.
The first is hourglass, the second teardrop. Or the other way around. I'm sure of it.
Ken the first one someone says 'hourglass' at the end of the tune, just before starting the 2nd tune.
For years I've said that you cannot tell what shape of dulcimer played a given tune. Others have firmly declared that they, by George, could always tell when a tune was being played on an hourglass versus a teardrop. A week or so back, Mark Gilston took up my challenge.
He says he can tell whether a tune is being played on an hourglass or on a teardrop; that each SHAPE has a distinctive sound. I say the sound of a dulcimer is NOT shaped-related. I've recorded 6 tunes on two dulcimers. The only thing my audio engineer friend did was cut apart the master recording into individual takes, and enhance th amplitude of all cuts equally
So you can "play along at home", sort of, here are two of the eleven files that Mark will listen to.
Can you tell what Shape the instruments were that played those two tunes? Of course in some sense you've got a 50/50 chance of getting it right. That's why Mark is taking the full test with eleven recordings.
Perhaps after Mark has had his 'go' at determining which is what, I'll open the files up to others...
I didn't read through the entire discussion, so forgive me if this is repeated information. Banjo Newsletter devoted almost all of the March issue to a tribute to Pete Seeger by various players and how he influenced their lives. It was a great tribute to a wonderful man.
Those who took part in this forum discussion might be interested in a live radio tribute to Pete Seeger to benefit the Woodstock Day School and the Hudson River Sloop Clearwater. The event is hosted by Jay Ungar and Molly Mason.
Hear the broadcast online at WAMC.ORG .
Such a sage comment from a sage woman.
Robin Thompson said:Life can be just plain hard sometimes and making music or sharing music can help along the way.
Such a sage comment from a sage woman.
Robin Thompson said:
Life can be just plain hard sometimes and making music or sharing music can help along the way.
Thank you for the links, friends.
I can't help but think how, in some ways, Pete Seeger was to the banjo what Jean Ritchie has been to the mountain dulcimer. If each had done nothing but help popularize those two instruments, it would've been a lot. They did much more. . .
I think of how many people have been encouraged to realize a dream of playing a musical instrument and have been helped along the way by folks both at Everything Dulcimer and here at FOTMD. Life can be just plain hard sometimes and making music or sharing music can help along the way.
Here is a picture of Pete that was posted over at Banjo Hangout. I think it is very typical of Pete and I would share it here.
Here's another story from the New York Times thatcompiles excerpts from interviews with other musicians (Bruce Springsteen, Bonnie Rait, Steve Earle, etc.) talking about Pete Seeger. Perhaps the most moving to me is the story of Pete watching television footage of the cleanup after 9-11, and the soundtrack they used was Bruce Springsteen singing Pete'ssong "We Shall Overcome." Pete commented that if all he had done was provide that song for that moment to help people heal, he would have lived a full life.
Thanks for the Fresh Air episode with Pete. Good to hear it.
Well, thanks for posting that, Steph, even tho' it brought a tear to my eye.
I heard a funny story in an interview Pete did onFresh Air with Terry Gross that was re-broadcast today. He was describing when he first met Woody Guthrie, who taught him how to hop trains and play in taverns. Woody basically told him which songs would get him a nickel or two when he played. And Woody explained how to wait on the outskirts of town where the trains would just start to pick up speed and then jump on. But he never explained at first how to get off. So the first time Petetried to get off, he fell, rolled down a hill, skinned both knees and both elbows and, more importantly, broke his banjo. He was traveling with a camera at the time, which he hocked to get enough money to buy a cheap guitar. He only knew a few chords at first, but played well enough to earn some nickels in the taverns until he could afford another banjo.
You can hear Pete tell the story yourself here .
We know most of those riding the rails were not doing it for fun, but it must have been quite an experience, just jumping railroad cars and traveling to wherever the trains went. What else would you expect from a guy who dropped out of Harvard to ride a bicycle across the country?
I not only remember them, but I have a couple. I also remember the LP pictured above.
Ken
"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."
Here is the NPR Obituary . It includes links to stories on Pete and some of his music.
Here is the album I refer to in the introductory comments above.
I had forgotten, but it was a 10" LP. Does anyone remember those?
Thanks DT, I appreciated your musical tribute to Pete.
Here is one way I will remember him: It's a song I enjoy playing on my dulcimer.
Ken
"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."
In the post war 50's I was halfway thro' my apprenticeship and senior 'boy' in the building firm I worked for. In charge of three or four other 'prentice's, (and 20 oz claw hammer and a sack of cut nails), we spent a lot of time on our knees laying floors in new build council houses! We used to sing a lot, helped the boredom of driving nails, and being the owner of a cheapo record deck (anybody else remember having one?) and a few pennies to spend , I was into what my family called 'rubbish music', some of which I introduced to my mates . One of the songs from my 'collection???' cropped up often !! Yep! you guessed it, 'If I had a Hammer' I guess it could be seen as our way of protesting about sore knees and blue thumbs ? (and I later married a girl named Irene ???)
rest in peace Pete
and thank you
JohnH
In 2001, after the terrorist attacks on September 11, I wrote a piece as a skit that served as a healing point for many of the parishioners at my church. In that I wrote about the lives of people and how it affected the rescuers and the ones who consoled those people. I also used a few songs to help give meaning and voice to the words that i wrote. It opened with Billy Joel's Miami 2007--I've seen the lights go out; sandwiched with Simon and Garfunkel's take on Silent Night with the evening news; and closed with a recitation of Pete Seeger''s If I had a Hammer (some of those who were helping in that part wouldn't sing, so we said the words...just as powerful).
A touching tribute indeed, and most assuredly, heartfelt. I never had the privilege of meeting Pete, but he certainly had a peaceful, down home appeal and approach.
I posted on my facebook page when I found out this morning.
May his song live on in all of us.
A personal musical tribute:
If you listen carefully, you can hear my voice breaking up.
Pete was such a powerful force for good. We can all learn from his example.
Pete was my hero back in the sixty's. He was the one that really got me singing and playing. My second banjo was a long-necked Vega because "it was what Pete played". I feel sad, but I am sure he and Woody are now making music again in the next world.
Pete on music and participation:
"I've never sung anywhere without giving the people listening a change to join in . . . I guess it's kind of a religion with me. Participation. That's what's going to save the human race."
Once upon a time, wasnt singing a part of everyday life as much as talking, physical exercise, and religion? Our distant ancestors, wherever they were in this world, sang while pounding grain, paddling canoes, or walking long journeys. Can we begin to make our lives once more all of a piece? Finding the right songs and singing them over and over is a way to start. And when one person taps out a beat, while another leads into the melody, or when three people discover a harmony they never knew existed, or a crowd joins in on a chorus as though to raise the ceiling a few feet higher, then they also know there is hope for the world.
Pete influenced a couple of generations of folk musicians. While he will be missed his influence will be felt for many years to come. RIP Pete. I'm glad to have known you.
Ken
"The dulcimer sings a new song."
