Forum Activity for @ken-hulme

1.  Yes -- as far as we can hear, the prejudice against plywood is that it is "dirt cheap" and therefore not good.  FALSE

2.  Spruce/redwood for dulcimer tops, IMHO is not worth the expense.  In guitars, yes.  But dulcimers do not create sound the same way, and the "good" that spruce does in a guitar is negated in a dulcimer because the top is so small and further, is muted by the fretboad.

3.  Body wood choice is just one of close to a hundred factors which affect the sound of a dulcimer and is overshadowed by the other 99 factors.

Again, IMHO, dulcimer buyers have been sold "a bill of goods"  about the importance of exotic, expensive, sexy-looking woods in making dulcimers.  As you said, extremely common woods like poplar make absolutely beautiful sounding instruments.

You asked "Is it a matter of the best luthiers choosing the woods that make the subtly best differences, thereby choice of wood could imply a level of craftsmanship?"   

My answer is NO.  Almost no dulcimer builders have done any reliable, repeatable quantitatively measured experiments to prove "beyond a shadow of doubt" that any woods make any subtle or not so subtle differences in dulcimer sound. 

They would like you to think that because they use sexy, expensive woods that that implies "a certain high level of craftsmanship".  But it does not.  A high level of craftsmanship is found only in those dulcimer builders who can make any woods, or even materials like cardboard or Legos sound good.

[donning asbestos suit to weather incipient firestorm]

Hello all! With lockdown finally dialing back I have been offered a gig at an antique mall, a barber shop, and a juice bar. Given that I build my own dulcimers I have been faced with the decision of how to amplify my sound so that it can span these venues.

It would be ideal to be able to street perform and make a living off dulcimer in the future, so I'd like to build one that has a beautiful tone that translates well when amplified with a speaker.

For starters a pickup seems to not be affected very much by the tone of the dulcimer itself, as electric dulcimers have much less dynamic tonality than acoustic dulcimers I have heard.
I have been told that the only difference among magnetic pickup dulcimers comes from the pickup chosen (I would appreciate input on which pickups are good for dulcimers) and how much the 'soundboard that the pickup is anchored to' is vibrating matters very little.

I have been told that piezos limit the fidelity of the audio and will leave the instrument sounding duller than if it were an acoustic performance

I have noticed that the vast majority of stage performances with a dulcimer rely on electric pickups to convey the sound, whereas coffee shop performances with a physical microphone pointed at the dulcimer seem to provide much more expression of the instrument itself.

How does it all fit together? For gigging at small venues what is ideal?

In guitar communities, cigar box guitar forums I participate in, as well as dulcimer forums there seems to be a lot of status attached to some types of wood, for example koa or basswood, in California it's redwood, or in Arkansas, pignut hickory.

I started off using craftboard for my dulcimers when i was first beginning to learn. Due to the reliable access I switched to red oak, and noticed right away the sound was consistently much brighter and twangier. Eventually I built the one in my profile picture which has a soundboard made from softwood teaboxes coated in poly for some extra durability. I got a couple of huge pieces of 1/8th inch plywood which i have built several dulcimers out of. They all sounded great.

This begs the question, how much does any of it really matter? Since joining a local dulcimer group several people have asked me after hearing my instrument what type of wood it is, only to be totally shocked when I say plywood with veneer. It seems that they have an expectation that plywood should not be able to sound good, but where does this idea come from? Is it just the knowledge that plywood is dirtcheap that makes them assume it should "sound cheap?"

Is it a matter of the best luthiers choosing the woods that make the subtly best differences, thereby choice of wood could imply a level of craftsmanship?

Maybe my ears are too unrefined to be able to tell the difference but others can?

I'm sure there will be opinions all over the place, given that some woods seem to be EXTREMELY common, whereas National champ Grant Olson played for so long (maybe still does) on a styrofoam dulcimer, so I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

Cheers!
-Nate

Is it accurate to say that you can make generalizations about an instruments tone based on materials, depth, and bridge placement?

For example it has always been my experience that a harder wood without any large knots will sound brighter than a softer wood of the same thickness which also does not have any large knots.
Also, dulcimers with taller sides seem to give more bass response than shallower ones.
Finally a bridge placed near the very edge of the soundbox to me sounds twangier than a bridge that is more centered over the box.

These generalizations have seemed consistently accurate to me. What do you guys think?

I have noticed that every dulcimer has a different tone and you never really know for sure what it will sound like til you hear it, but maybe at the very least one can identify characteristics that will ensure their dulcimer's tone is not too terribly far from what one desires.

I'd love input from others as I am still very much a beginner!

-Nate

A topic I have heard several times among both players and builders is the pros and cons of various temperaments, with no consensus ever being reached. It does occur to me that a fretless instrument such as a violin avoids this problem entirely since the fretting hand determines how flat or sharp the note is by it's placement. Are there dulcimers made fretless, in order to achieve any microtonality the player might desire? Obviously it would be MUCH harder to play and also take a lot of knowledge to use correctly, but if it gives a sweeter sound, why not?

Stay well!

I like very low and narrow mandolin frets because i think they make less noise when i slide across them. My dulcimer is chromatic so the 'thumping' of the frets is something I try to mitigate. I have heard it said that pressing too hard on strings makes them bend and stretch inconsistently and can affect tone, so I would imagine taller frets do this even more? Definitely gonna try them on my next dulcimer to see how they feel.

I borrowed a dulcimer from my sister. I think it’s a kit dulcimer with a 29” VSL. It’s missing strings so I don’t know how it plays yet. It will give me something to work on my music theory with until I buy a dulcimer. .

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I know a few luthiers who have started either using jumbo frets or offering them as an upgrade. I know Aaron O'Rourke loves them. According to him, the bigger frets enable you to get notes without pushing your fingers all the way down to the wood so you can play faster.  To be honest, I don't think the size of the fret is what slows me down!

My guess is that @ken-hulme didn't like them because he plays with a noter, and the jumbo frets probably just get in the way as you slide the noter up and down the fretboard.

I used Jumbo frets a few times, didn't ca re fo r them

Thanks so much for your helpful input, Dusty!

Don- we're trying to clear up some confusion in your descriptions- otherwise we won't be able to help.

1) you can be "signed in" (logged into the fotmd site, as shown by seeing your name at top right link as Dusty outlined in red.... but unless you have JOINED a Group, you still won't be able to access that particular Group's discussions. Again- see Dusty's red outline showing where to JOIN a GROUP.  When you are in a group and something is inaccessible, do you see the button that either says "Join Group" or "Leave Group"?  If you see it, what does it say...join or leave?

2) we can't confuse discussion Forums with Group discussions. Anyone online (even non site members) can see the discussions in our site Forums.  However, with GROUP discussions, you will not see the whole discussion and will not be able to post in the group unless you have JOINED that group- see Dusty's screenshot.
To clear up what you are referring to- please post here the URL or link of the location that you cannot access. Even if it says no access allowed, please Copy that link address and post here, so I can see where you are when you are having this trouble accessing.

3) additionally, as Dusty asked, I too must ask- when you say you are 'restricted' what does that mean?- are you getting an error message?- if so what does the message say?  Or, if an error message is not popping up, what are you seeing?- a "404 Page not found" page?  Or, just not seeing the replies to a discussion?  What exactly are you seeing, or being told in a message?

4) Have you tried accessing these places on a different device? (a phone, a tablet, a laptop, a desktop)  Try a different device to see if it happens from that device too, so we can know if the issue is only happening on one device you're using.

Please try to respond to these particular questions i've laid out above, so I can try to help you.

@don-grundy, what do you mean when you say "forums I follow are restricted?"  Forums should be available to anyone logged in.  Group discussions are limited to those who have joined the Group.

First, make sure you are logged in.  You should see your Username in the upper right-hand corner, as in this screen shot.

If you are definitely logged in, all the Forum Discussions should be open to you, but you will only see the first comment (or maybe the latest comment) of discussions within the Groups. You have to join that individual Group to see the rest of the comments.

If you are sure you are logged in, and you are sure you are talking about Forums rather than Groups, then please explain what you mean by "restricted."  What happens when you click to see a Forum discussion?

Curious to know if anyone has "Jumbo" frets on their dulcimers?

I've found this Jan. '93 Mark Blair Dulcimer #637 (missing the nut) and in the process of getting it back in playing shape.

It has HUGE ! frets  - . 105w close to Dunlop 6130/6140 - especially compared to my '85 McSpadden with classic "mandolin" style wire 0.80w 0.39h

A label reads "Custom Built for Lindsay Ruth Harris" perhaps this was a custom request. Oddly? this was strung with an old, rusty set of 10-10-20 very light strings!

I took 12 dulcimers that I built exactly alike. Only difference was the mixture of woods. Each one had its own distinct tone. As it should be. But all sounded good. Every piece of wood even from the same stock will have different densities and different vibration characteristics. larger or deeper body's don't necessarily sound better or louder. Nice thing about guitars is that you can go to any music store and compare, unfortunately that doesn't work for dulcimers. Buy from a reputable builder and stay away from the very low priced imports... Robert.

As Dusty said, you can't really compare recordings of Brands of instruments on the internet -- too many variables.  The only reasonable comparison you can make is to listen live (by phone or in person) to two specific instruments being played.  Even then, as James said -- there can be a huge number of variables that cause individual instrument to have a specific sound. 

The other thing is that tone is very subjective.  Even in the same wood species, it can very.  As well, tuning can be a factor as well.  I have a dulcimer in Bagpipe tuning that is walnut and sycamore top and to me, it sounds bright and cheerful like what you expect from an all cherry.  Just my own 2 cents to add to the discussion.

Two things to keep in mind, @traildad.  First, when you are listening to audio or video on the internet, the quality of the original recording and the quality of the speakers or headphones you are listening on will make a huge difference.  So you can't really compare the audio files from the McSpadden site with Jessica's videos below.  Secondly, from what I can tell, Jessica is tuned down to C, whereas the standard tuning for a dulcimer is D.  Jessica's recordings may sound richer than those on the McSpadden site only because she is in a lower tonal range.

@jessica-comeau is a member here at FOTMD.  In addition to being a wonderfully expressive player, she is also really friendly. You might ask her what she likes about McSpadden dulcimers or how she achieves the sound she does.

I am a newbie looking to get my first dulcimer. I have made a point to listen to some differrent recordings to get a  better understanding of different qualities and tones. Being inexperienced i can't be sure if all the differences i hear are related to the dulcimer or maybe to the tuning etc. I am comparing a audio file posted on this site of a McSpadden for sale with two YouTube videos. I am hoping to get opinions on what to attribute the differences between them too. The dulcimer,  the tuning, the key, the notes played etc. Thanks for the input. 

https://fotmd.com/forums/forum/38171/mcspadden-dulcimer-with-1-and-8-frets

Only 61 more to go!  I just put a new string on my hammered dulcimer.  I only have 61 more to go!

Actually my goal by the end of tomorrow is just to have all the phosphor bronze strings replaced.  I think there are 14 of them.  They seem to have weathered the years worse than the plain steel strings have.

( accent to your dulcimer playing) I think that is the purpose of the design but since I don't play the guitar I set it up hopefully for dulcimer playing. With both fret boards set to D and the strings in the middle set as a drone & divided, I can dragged over the heavy middle strings adding a deep full tone for the dulcimer.

Question:  How easy or difficult is it to reach over and play the fret board that is away from me - hand position or fingerings change? Or is it fine on my lap and only changes if on a stand & I am standing over it?  

Thanks all,

Since you won't be able to play the "guitar" in the middle like a guitar since it has no frets or a dobro since the bridge is curved, I would suggest you just set the six "guitar" strings as low bass notes to add an occasional accent to your dulcimer playing.  If the two dulcimers are going to be tuned to D (DAA and DAd), I would use pretty heavy strings on the guitar to get low notes of D, E, F#, G, A, and B, which would correspond to the tonics of the three main chords in D and their relative minors: D, Em, F#m, G, A, and Bm.

That's just an idea. I really can't imagine what the original intent was of this instrument, though it looks super cool.

OK: With the string gages I had on hand, I restrung the 2 dulcimers.

The one away from me DAA and the first 3 strings in the middle to (a baritone like) tuning but AdA - the first A to a very low A the other two to regular d & A. I had hear Joseph Ruback do a demo of 'fourth string equidistant tuning' with a low A below D and I thought it sounded so full and rich. 

The second dulcimer fret board closest to me DAdd and the 3 other strings in the middle to Bass DAD. The very low D - I'm not sure I like yet but it's a start. 

I tried it out and it sounds so full. I didn't play any songs yet, just played around. It's like equidistant spacing with 3 drones. I will need to wait to try other keys, because I may need different size strings but I wanted to thank you for your thoughts and ideas. 

Always an adventure,

Thanks

I suppose you could use just about any D guitar tuning, or maybe the D pentatonic scale would work [DEF#AB]. There's a lot of room to experiment. Currently I can't see the center section being used with the 2 outer sections without a lot of playing around for awhile, probably finger/flat picking.

For string selection. You could go a couple of sizes larger since this tools recommendations are a bit light.

http://www.strothers.com/string_choice.html

Not sure who the builder was, someone in the Houston area (K. May, maybe)

The furniture stand, the dulcimer sits on has a trap door to allow more sound to amp out besides the cane openings in the front. Attaching 2 photos so you can see the door

In the idea of the middle 6 strings, lets say for now I keep things in the key of D - what could I tune the 6 to or 3 & 3 and what size strings?

thanks

 Door Closed.jpg - 362KB

Without knowing anything about that instrument, I just have to say that it looks like a beautiful creation, like a piece of fine furniture. Whoever the builder was he/she certainly was very gifted.

The curved nut/bridge could be replaced with straight ones if the wide fretboard is flat. Then you could do both a base and baritone or ???. I don't think using those as drones will work too good unless the MD sets are both in the same key. Even then it may be overkill.

The wide fretboard is basically a blank canvas that you could use to create something unique. Maybe a combined MD tuning like DADADA or DADDAA or???.

Spacing between the middle strings is 1/2" each all the way across and sightly bowed. 

I changed the strings on the 2 dulcimers fret boards and tuned different - the middle strings (playing around with them) make a great deep open drone.

Question: lets forget about setting up as guitar strings and think of dulcimer - Bass or Baritone or both - 3 each  -   OR - What could make an open tone to go with the dulcimer parts?  I would need string size and tuning (maybe think about zithers and open strings that go with fretted dulcimer) And again thinking 3 for top fret board & 3 for bottom fret board but could go together, if all are strummed.

Again thoughts and Thanks

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 I guess like many do lately, I have been sewing some 2 or 3 layer cotton masks for myself and my friends. @Terry-Wilson I'm real glad I have a simple sewing machine at home!  Also now we don't shop for as many clothes so doing home repairs on the clothes we have is a good thing.  :)

It looks to me like it is made to support a fretless bass guitar [or dobro?] and two different MD tunings. Bing Futch plays a double MD tuned that way. I would think any 2 tunings would work, although I would use a standard and a bass.

A quad MD!   The 6 string fretboard could, possibly, be set up as 2 more, fretless [think chromatic], MD tunings. It looks like the spacing between the middle strings is a bit wider than the others. 

The 6 guitar strings are different thickness - the lightness is thicker then my dulcimer bass string and the lowest string is very thick - thinking it must be like bass guitar gauge strings.

The two fret boards are tuned differently, they both can be set with 3 or 4 strings. I have only lower the action & changed the strings closest to me so far and I have it set to DAdd. I was thinking setting the other to either DAA or DGdd or maybe 4 equal strings would be an interesting idea. The VSL is very long 29+"

The question I have is setting up the middle 6 guitar strings:     

    Could I maybe set them like a Baritone or Bass dulcimer?

   Or, if keeping with the idea of a guitar harp -  seems Bass guitar string gauges are too low and also harder to pluck while trying to strum the dulcimer frets. If I would go with guitar setting would a much light set of strings and a regular guitar tuning be better?

   Someone who won this dulcimer gave it to me and I am trying to set it up to work for a dulcimer player - no matter why it was designed the way it was, just trying to go from here.

Again thoughts on best way to set up to work along with the dulcimer fret boards

thanks

Marg, I can't tell from the photos. Are all six guitar strings the same gauge (thickness)? I am guess that the tuners for those strings have the tuning knobs below the peg head. It looks to me like there are two sets of three strings down the center. I am puzzled as to why the two dulcimer fret boards face in the same direction. Are both tuned the same? Is one equal string spacing and the other with a double melody string? I am having trouble understanding the purpose of this design.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

I am trying to set up this double fretboard with 6 guitar strings in the middle (it was made with the idea of a guitar harp in mind) - not by me 
  The 6 guitar strings on it now are heavy & not sure what to tune them to - or should I replace with a standard guitar Size strings and tune to a standard guitar tuning and what would that be?
OR:  split the strings half & half, 3  very heaver & low to the other 3 strings lighter & higher

    Any thoughts

 double fretboard.jpg - 525KB

He was quite a luthier among other things. I am sure he will be missed greatly, but his legacy live in in his creations.

And that's not all Leo, 200 hammered dulcimers, one guitar, and various other instruments.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

1,500 dulcimers AND 1,500 autoharps?!? I only really knew of the former. Amazing productivity! 

Think of just how many strings that represents! 

@ken-longfield I offer my deepest sympathy, Ken.  I only know of Mr. Orthey by reputation.  Wishing for comfort for all who  mourn his death.  

I'm very sad to hear this news.  George Orthey was one of the great dulcimer makers.  I have 2 of his dulcimers, and my friend Geoff Black has more.  Orthey dulcimers are very light, small bodied and responsive, and incredibly loud (by dulcimer standards).  For the last few decades of his life he concentrated on his famous autoharps, but his dulcimers will always be treasured.

Sad news. Orthey was well respected luthier in both autoharp and dulcimer circles.