Forum Activity for @matt-berg

The trapezoid and its close cousin, the Tennessee music box, have the potential for great instruments.  Here are two of my recent builds where I added rounded corners and a waist.  As with all of my recent builds, they feature a bowed back and a floating fretboard.  Both instruments have strong voices.  The larger, 27" VSL, twangy due to stiffer bracing and the shorter, 24" VSL, more mellow.  The sound boards were from wood recovered from a house renovation.  I believe they are white cedar.

Thanks for the link. I agree with Ken.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

The one on the "front page"?  That's just a simple trapezoid-shaped dulcimer; a number of us make them.  Some are wider, like the one Stephen has, some are narrower like the attached photo of a museum replica I'm building which was made around the time of the Civil War. 

The body shape comes from the Pennsylvania zithers which came over from Germany in the late 1500s/early 1600s.  

I don't know the maker of Stephen's; you'd have to ask him.

I'm too lazy to search through all of Stephen's videos to find the dulcimer. Do you have a link to the video?

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

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Just watch his hands!

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Nah, I'm intermediate.

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This is a good discussion and I remember it being discussed several months ago.  After reading Dusty's Berkley descriptions back then, I moved my rank up to Intermeditate. I still make mistakes while I'm playing but I can cover a lot of them up, too. Ditto everything Terry Wilson said.  I guffawed out loud when I read Skip's description of Beg, Inter, Adv.  Skip, so you have TAB for Flight of the Bumblebee?  Dulcinina

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I really think it's an attitude or state of mind. I was messing around with Southwind yesterday. I played it on the melody strings, sometimes throwing in a few chords. I played it on the upper strings, then the bass strings. I even tried it just on the middle string. I'm still not ready to call myself an intermediate, but that kind of experimentation is what you do when you are moving out of beginner status.

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Beginner-  "What's this?"

Intermediate- "I got most of the notes/chords in most of the tunes today".

Advanced- "Lets play 'Flight of the Bumblebee'".

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General mountain dulcimer or music discussions



Lisa, I know you are serious, but you still brought a huge humongous smile to my face.

I certainly can't judge what "level" your career stands. But one thing I do know is this:

"If it wasn't for your videos, I may have given up early on. Far as I am concerned you be a "100." Seriously.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

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Ken, I'm not ready now to get a new dulcimer with the flexi-frets, but I would like to someday.  I did play one once, though.  I think you are probably right that inserting and removing the frets is not so easy that you'd be putting them in and taking them off in the middle of a jam session.  But it's not that hard either, at least not with the little tool Dwain supplies. I was surprised that the slots were not really noticeable by feel when the frets were not there.  But I only play with my fingers. I wonder if the "empty" slots would affect a noter sliding up and down.  Maybe we can have @elvensong answer these questions when he gets his.

 

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Dusty -- I'll be interested to hear your take on the flexi-frets.  I've heard from others that removing/replacing frets is not as easy/simple as it is made to sound.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

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Lucky you! That'll be quite an instrument.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Dwain is building a Concert Grand for me with flexi-frets. Brilliant idea! Opens up the entire dulcimer fret possibilities on one instrument. I'm hoping to have mine in time for Walnut Valley. 

 

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'm joining this conversation late, but I do have one suggestion: flexifrets . Flexifrets are frets that can be inserted and taken out by the player.  I might not want to buy a dulcimer with a 4+ fret, but if it were a flexifret, I might be curious. I would still, however, want a 1+, so if you install a flexifret for the 4+, you should also do it for the 1+

Incidentally, Paul Furnas only plays Renaissance and early music, and he claims that even in DAd, a 4+ would be more useful for him than a 1+ or even a 6+.  He brought a diatonic dulcimer to a luthier to add the 4+ fret, but the luthier assumed he misspoke and put on a 6+ instead! (Paul ended up selling that dulcimer.)

Anyway, I've been thinking about getting a dulcimer with a true diatonic fretboard but then adding a flexifret for every half fret, so the dulcimer could function as truly diatonic, fully chromatic, or anything in between.

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I would have no idea how to rank myself or anyone else and I think it's important to point out that there is no perfect way to define dulcimer abilities.  I am sure I know a whole lot more chords than does Ken, but he understands modes in ways I never will.  The skills and knowledge for different styles of play are simply not comparable. Linda Brockinton one of the best fingerpicking dulcimer players around, yet her prowess with a flat pick or quill is pretty limited.

I don't think it is worth working on a skill just because you think you want to advance to some other level of dulcimer playing. Just watch and listen to the people who play in the style that most interests you and keep trying to improve.  That's all that any of us can do.

The only purpose for formal definitions of levels is at festivals to help attendees find the right workshops for their interests and skill levels.  But that's it.  They do not really define objective, measurable skills that everyone develops over time.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

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Lisa and Strumalia, Thank you for you responses. This site has lots of good info from people in the trenches. I am thinking of the 1+ and 8+ now considering that I might start experimenting with the mixo. tunings.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Oops, I answered off the top of my head.  It's true the 4+ is relatively the same fret as the 1+ for your tuning.  But I forgot about how the rest of the scale maps out.  Today I got out a dulcimer and studied the modal charts here .  Assuming my poor muddled brain has it right this time, if you want to play a Dorian scale starting at the 3rd fret you will need both a 4+ fret and an 8+ fret.   

Many tunes don't use the 7th note of the scale, and it's pretty easy to bend a note in the middle of the fretboard, so you could play a lot of Dorian tunes without the 8+ fret.  Still, the 4+ fret is not as magical for CGG tuning as the 1+ is for CGC.  I see several paths forward depending on where you want to go: 

1) You could order a dulcimer with 1+, 4+ and 8+ frets (6+ optional).  This dulcimer would be specialized for Ionian 1-5-5 tunings like CGG.  You might never be able to re-sell it, but it would be quite the conversation piece. 

2) You could get a dulcimer with 1+, 6+ and 8+ frets, which is not uncommon.  Play it in CGG and see what happens.  You'd always have the option to re-tune CGC.  It's not your favorite tuning, but CGC would give you Ionian (with 6+ fret), Mixolydian (no extra frets) and Dorian (with 1+ fret) ready to go.  Not Aeolian though: for that you'd also need... here it comes... the 4+ fret!

3) Get a chromatic fretboard.  Beyond a certain point it is easier to have all the frets and be done with it. 

4) Give up on extra frets and re-tune for Dorian mode (CGF). 

5) Experiment and see which extra frets work for you.  Straighten out a paper clip and use masking tape to hold it in place where the extra fret should be.  A total kludge, but it can be fun. 

I play using 2) and 3) and 4) above on different dulcimers, in different playing styles, as the mood strikes.

updated by @lisa-golladay: 07/28/18 05:19:09PM

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I don't know what I am. But I think, from 0-100, I am perhaps a 57. Yeah, I like 57. In 6 years, never been to a work shop. Jammed with other dulcimer players two times. Have never ever much thought about hammerons....and the other nifty skills mentioned. I still use tab some, but also play by ear. Use two octaves regularly. Love to strum. Play a lot with one and two strings. Have introduced  dulcimer to adults and children. Even when I was a 30 rank. So why a lowly 57? You might ask. Well, most every time there is a new video posted, I am faced with the truth. I KNOW SO LITTLE AND HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO. If the many members , for example, like Mark and Dusty and Christine, weren't so doggone good, then maybe I could be a 63.

updated by @terry-wilson: 07/28/18 07:31:24PM

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Folks, I didn't provide the criteria from the Berkeley Dulcimer Gathering because I agree with the descriptions there or think of it as the standard we should all adopt.  I just wanted people to see an example of descriptions that list some specific techniques, since the original question was about "skills" that would be considered intermediate.

I agree, @banjimer.  However, a lot of workshops don't actually teach skills but teach repertoire.  There are tons of workshops, for example, on Irish jigs or English country dance tunes or whatever.  In those cases, people need to understand the skills they should already have to benefit from the workshops.

Yes, there are plenty of great musicians who can't read music.  But some degree of music literacy is necessary if we are going to talk about how we're playing, to teach and learn from one another.  I give dulcimer lessons at a music store and they get a constant stream of young guitar players who want to teach there.  But many of them have no understanding of the basic concepts of music literacy, so they can't explain how to construct a chord or how long to hold a given note. All they want to do is show people how they play.  That approach is of limited helpfulness.

I agree, Ken.  That's why I asked the question in an earler discussion about when people know they are no longer beginners.  A lot of people hold onto that "beginner" label as a crutch, as a way to lower people's expectations of their playing.  But in my mind if you can follow simple tablature or follow by ear and eyes someone playing a simple song, then you are no longer a beginner.  You've reached a basic level of proficiency that deserves the term "intermediate."

 

BUT . . . at the risk of upsetting many of my dulcimer friends . . . I do think that dulcimer players have two main limitations which impede our progress as musicians.  One is the inability to do anything with the right hand other than strum across all the strings all the time.  The second is the inability to play in keys other than D.

Just because we have three strings doesn't mean we have to play all of them all the time.  We should be willing to sometimes play a single note or sometimes just two. And yes, that might mean working on the right-hand techniques to strum two strings or pluck one-at-a-time.

And if you ever want to join a jam that is not limited to dulcimer players tuned to the key of D, you need to understand how to use your instrument to accompany others playing in other keys.  Without this ability--which requires some basic music literacy--even intermediate and advanced dulcimer players would be considered beginning musicians.  I'm not suggesting that I can jam with a saxophone player in Bb, and I admit to "cheating" by retuning and/or using a capo when I can, but the old timey music scene includes fiddle players who want to play in A and banjo players who want to play in G and so forth.  We should all aspire to being able to join them.

 

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Lisa G. brings up a very good point- a dulcimer with added 4.5 and 11.5 frets would be quite difficult to sell.  Most folks who use extra frets in addition to the common 6.5 fret would want either 1.5 and 8.5 or all the way to chromatic.

FWIW, I play only in noter style and 'usually' in DAA type tuning, but I have found it very useful in oldtime fiddle sessions to have the two extra pairs of frets;  6.5 & 13.5, and also 1.5 & 8.5.  But for relaxed playing at home I do also enjoy and can appreciate a total diatonic fretboard and retuning to different modes while playing older traditional music.

As long as there are still a few diatonic fret spacings I've not found it hard to keep my bearings visually.  Once you get to chromatic I'd recommend having a few inlaid fret markers (like guitars and fretted banjos tend to use).

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I've seen that as an issue for both beginners and intermediate players.  Sometimes we get so focused on not stumbling or playing a single 'wrong' note that we forget about playing expressively and forget about the importance of the right hand as well.

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That, plus it seems most beginners get caught up in collecting tab and playing only from tab without actually learning to play from memory.  I don't know how many folks I've seen who literally have to use tab to play Boil Them Cabbage!!!

IMHO "Intermediate" is just a state of mind.  If you play better than most of the folks around you, but aren't up to "really good" (in your mind) players,  I'd say you're intermediate.

 

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To be honest, I wasn't thinking about workshops. I like to be able to judge my progress when I'm learning something. And I like to see more advanced techniques, because then I can see how it fits together. I'm starting to understand how to use chords now. You can play the melody, then drop in a chord at a good spot.

I would say it's possible to be an excellent musician and not read music. It's a good skill to have though. I think it's a good skill to be able to play a melody on the bass string or the high end of the dulcimer. I like the idea of learning riffs, to drop in as needed. I just think that beginners sometimes get so focused on learning a song that they don't understand the ways they can change it around and make it their own.

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If we're talking about dulcimer workshop levels (and it sounds like we are), the solution is to have a short description of what will be taught.  Then the attendees can decide if they are ready to learn that particular skill.

For example:

"This workshop will teach the three basic chords in D-A-A tuning and some basic rhythm strums."

"In this workshop you will learn hammer-ons and pull-offs and how to apply them in the songs you already know."

"This workshop will teach you how to retune to the four most common modal tunings."

"Dulcimer Duos.  This workshop will teach you how to play with another dulcimer player.  One will play play the melody and one will play back up chords."

The best workshops I've ever attended were taught by Stephen Seifert, who took a single tune and presented it in stages.  In essence, he taught those attending how to begin with a simple melody and gradually add different techniques to make it a more advanced arrangement.    

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This is a good and useful discussion!

In reading the Berkeley guidelines, I have to say that some of those criteria for being Intermediate seem more suited for Advanced however. I'd never meet those standards, especially the parts about " to play in and modulate to different keys with and without a capo or retuning; to flat-pick and fingerpick a tune"..... sigh... I guess I'll be an eternal beginner.     Also, is it not possible to be considered an advanced player without ever reading either Tablature or sheet music?- an intriguing question.

NSThoreau, I think you are right about the fact that there is often less info geared towards the huge segment of people who have just gone beyond the beginner stage. There must be good explanations for this but I can't think of any right now.

One would think that by the time one is an 'advanced' player they'd be at the point where they could be teaching  most of the workshops at festivals. Maybe there should only be one advanced workshop- called Teaching Advanced Playing Workshops... but then would they just be teaching each other how to teach the workshop?  hahaha
Sorry I don't mean to make light of this, but the problems and ironies of this classification system have always struck me. I've always found workshop festivals to be a mixed bag, partly because it's hard for me to know where I even fit in, and often by the time I figure that out, it's over.  

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

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Matt, Thank you, I will look for the Daa forum.

Ken, Thank you too. I am not sure of the style I play. I like to play my melody on the middle string while strumming instead of the normal melody string. I use chords on two or three pieces but usually let the melody strings drone on.

Lisa, thank you. I was wondering about the fret issue and will have to think about the 4+ and 11+ or the 1+ and 8+ situation. Which gives you the dorian?

 

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I find that very helpful. Thanks! I've seen this problem in learning other skills. There's a lot of info on getting started, then info for those learning advanced techniques. There's not always a good way to progress from beginner to advanced though.

I'm still in the beginner's camp but working towards that intermediate stage. This gives me something to shoot for.

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@notsothoreau, my personal opinion is that if you can play basic tunes reading tablature then you are no longer a beginner.  To some extent, that is a confidence and proficiency issue. If I tell you to play me a 3-3-5 chord, do you have to count frets to figure out where your third and fifth frets are?  If so, you are probably still a beginner.  But if you know the first octave of your fretboard, you are probably an intermediate player. Most festivals might refer to left-hand techniques such as hammer-ons and pull-offs as intermediate-level skills.  And among those of us who chord, we might point to the ability to play a certain number of chords, to be able to play more than one voicing of basic chords, and perhaps to understand some basic chord substitutions.  The ability to play in more than one tuning would probably be considered an intermediate skill as well.

But there is clearly no criteria that will fit everyone. I came to the dulcimer from the guitar and mandolin, and my right hand technique was advanced before I ever touched a dulcimer. Once I learned three or four chords, which I did the first 20 minutes I had a dulcimer, most people would have no longer considered me a beginner ,even though I had no understanding of the fretboard and was horrible at reading tab. (I'm still pretty bad at it today; I need to look at my instrument!)

The Berkeley Dulcimer Gathering posted the following criteria to help festival attendees identify the best workshops for them. It is admittedly centered on chord/melody play, which will not fit traditional gatherings at all.  (Although I regularly teach at that event, I had no hand in writing these descriptions.)

Absolute Beginner: You do not need previous dulcimer experience or musical background.

Beginner: You know how to hold your instrument, and can strum and play some simple tunes. You may not feel confident yet, but you love the music that your instrument can make! These classes will help you learn some chords, gain more comfort with your instrument and your ability to find and play tunes by ear and from music and tablature. You do not need previous dulcimer experience or musical background.

Intermediate: You have the skills of the previous levels and you’ve learned the basics of strumming and reading tablature, you need to expand your playing techniques and musical theory. You are learning to embellish your basic music with hammer-ons, pull-offs, and slides; to adapt an arrangement with different chord positions; to play in and modulate to different keys with and without a capo or retuning; to flat-pick and fingerpick a tune. You can play in different tunings.

Advanced: You have the skills of the other levels plus the ability to play at least 4 chords in DAd or DAA tuning, to use 2-3 fingers (left hand), and be comfortable with at least 2-3 basic rhythms, utilize melody runs on all the strings using scales, then adding arpeggios and patterns from within chords, as well as a strummed chordal melody.

updated by @dusty: 07/27/18 09:34:20PM

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There was a discussion earlier about people continuing to refer to themselves as beginners, even though they were no longer beginners skillwise. I'm curious as to how someone would determine that they have in fact progressed beyond the beginner stage. What skills are necessary before you can call yourself an intermediate? Is it simply attitude? Confidence?

updated by @notsothoreau: 10/27/19 12:02:25PM

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Short answer: The equivalent frets for CGG tuning would be 4+ and 11+.  However, depending on the scales and chords you want to play, you might prefer 1+ and 8+ anyway.

Long answer:  For people who play in DAD/CGC tuning, the scale starts at the open 0 fret.  Adding the 1+ fret gives them a flatted 3rd note.  That note is critical for playing minor scales and very handy if you are lazy like me and you don't want to re-tune or capo every time you want to play the blues.

In DAA/CGG tuning, your scale starts at the 3rd fret.  The 1+ and 8+ frets give you flatted 7th notes.  This lets you play a Mixolydian scale without re-tuning.  If you wanted a flatted 3rd note instead, you'd need the 4+ fret.

So... do you want to add a flat 3rd or a flat 7th?  Would you rather play Dorian and blues -- or Old Joe Clark?  The easier question is how often do you wish you had a fret at 8+?  Compared to how often you wish you had a fret at 4+?  If you've never wished you had either, maybe you don't need extra frets.  How often do you re-tune now, and why?

That was all about scales.  I can't help much with chords in CGG but you get these additional notes for building chords:

E-flat and B-flat with a 1+ fret

A-flat and E-flat with a 4+ fret

Another factor to consider is the 1+ and 8+ frets are fairly common now.  You can find tab and chord charts (though mostly in DAd) and it won't be hard to re-sell a dulcimer with those frets.  The 4+ fret is less common and it will be harder to find resources and harder to re-sell.

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 4th Year

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

You may want to consider listening to the Hearts of the Dulcimer Podcast episode about Steve called The Many Modes of Stephen Seifert :  http://dulcimuse.com/podcast/resource/036.html

 

 

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

What Matt said -- you will get a few extra notes, but it depends on what kind of music you're playing whether those particular notes will do you any good.  In your current repertoire, are the significant (say even 10%) songs that require those 'non-traditional' notes??  

Are you playing Fingerdance or Chord Melody style?

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 4th Year

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I did not know about the Stephen Seifert workshop! I signed up for it. It's going to be tricky. We are trying to get our house on the market and really wanted to get moved out of the area. I'm gambling that I will be here for the workshop. 

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The DAa forum would give you more guidance.  In DAd, the 1 1/2 - 8 1/2 frets give you the ability to play F on the D strings and C on the A string.  You would gain the same notes DAa or DAd.  Whether you would use them depends on the songs you play. 

I like it!  Very musical.  And I like the connection to your grandmother.  Thats what makes our instruments special to us.

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 4th Year

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks for coming to the workshop! You all sounded so wonderful together. And Wayne and I had a blast.

Wayne really knows how to fix up dulcimers ... that's why all the dulcimers we brought sounded so good! We were glad that there was an extra dulcimer for her to use during the workshop.

BTW, did you know that Stephen Seifert is coming to Portland in September to do a 3 day workshop? Here's the info:  http://www.stephenseifert.com/three-day-registration/generic-three-day-lyb7e

Hope to see you again in another dulcimer setting!

 

 

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

After a great deal of agonizing, a lot of playing, and careful consideration, I finally chose my song. It is Bob Franke's "Alleluia, The Great Storm Is Over." I have not been able to get it out of my head since my first post in this discussion. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I'm really infatuated with Southwind right now. Still working on playing it.

I don't normally name things like this (and I don't really name my treadle sewing machines either, except that I have too many Singers to just call them Singer.) When I got this dulcimer, I decided to call it Alta Bell. That was my maternal grandmother's name. She wasn't particularly musical but it seemed like a good name for an instrument.