Forum Activity for @irene

I WOULD be interested in those lovely pegs....if not too much...and if they still work.  thanks. 

hummmmm, wooden pegs.  two of the dulcimers that I rescued had hand carved, (not so good) wooden pegs and they were terrible to fine tune.  gerrrrrrr. so I replaced them with banjo tuners and like these A LOT!! I do see those other little holes and most likely they were wooden pegs. but these banjo pegs are lovely with the wooden part on the ends and using the metal parts to do the turning.   There IS someone that sells the wooden part for ONE...I think he said for $30.00 each.  that's a little steep. but sure looked better then the white plastic.  I've seen some yellow plastic (old looking ones) that looked lovely.  

Pegs would need to be fit to the instrument. Store bought ebony or rosewood can be used. A maker could make you some designed after your liking. Need to find a luthier near you,

DAN

I had posted a previous forum on this but wanted to expand on it, after some feed back from Strumelia and others.

 So, found this as a rescue, needed major cleanup etc. But it's a sweetie, in really good shape, no guess as to what woods it's made of. Intonation is good all up and down the frets, It is JI, equidistant, great tone and well made. I usually don't buy them unless I know something of the maker, but I'm not disappointed at all.

 Inside is a label that is personalized, " To my friend Louie", Made in Feb, 1989, There is a logo of which I am attaching a photo of, a line, "Red", Made in Statesville, NC. Just wondering if anyone may know anything about it.

 After Strumelia pointed it out, these current tuners on it look for sure to be an add on later. I would love to put wood peg tuners back on it, if any one can tell me where i can find or have some made.

 The n4th picture is hard to see but if you look close you can see the logo, the line and then the R in Red.

 Also, if I can find peg tuners I will be selling off the current tuners to anyone who may be interested.

 Any info greatly appreciated as always,

 011.jpg - 29KB

I'm thinking those geared tuning pegs were a later modification, and that it may have originally had wooden pegs. Note the additional now-unused holes for where the wooden peghead ends would have protruded.

A photo of the label inside would be very helpful- others can often decipher murky writing that one person can't.

Hey, Boo!  (Sorry....I couldn't resist).  It's great having you join us and I hope you'll find us a fun, helpful bunch.  I have a Ginger that I really like. It was especially helpful when I was first learning chords.  I've never been to Mountain View, but I hope I can go some day.

that is a great treasure....and LOVELY TUNING PEG...I'd love to find a place that sold such nice looking ones like that!!  I was looking at a dulcimer on ebay last night said it was "not in working order"...but the tuning pegs were worth the $49.00 he was asking for.  When I looked at that site this morning...."SOLD". OH WELL. It's fun to rescue beautifully made dulcimers.  I do however, love a movable bridge.  many of the older dulcimers have a slot for the bridge to go in and it makes it do the bridge can't be moved for fine tuning.  aloha, irene

Sounds like a real treasure, George!

Hi Rob Lackey, I did pick that dulcimer up, needed some serious cleaning, those tuners were seriously loose, the dust build up tells me this hadn't had a finger laid on it in years. Cleaned up great, I wasn't sure what to expect as far as it not having a strum hollow as all my others do, but it's got a real nice mellow voice. It holds a tuning great, no fret buzz and intonation seems to be right on the money.

 It was made in 1989 in Statesville NC, is personalized on the inside label to, "my friend Louis, Some type of makers mark, then just "Red".

 All solid woods, and above average workmanship. 

 Not disappointed, just wanted to pass that along, and thanks as always for your feedback.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I found this online today and did a search for Barb and here's what came up:

http://digitalcollections.uark.edu/cdm/search/collection/OzarkFolkSong/searchterm/bar*%20*llen/order/title

 Lordy if'n I didn't find another one:

http://maxhunter.missouristate.edu/indexsongtitle.aspx?Letter=B

I gotta get off line

http://web.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/songs.html#b

I will say on the last site the recording of Aunt Ollie Gilbert is her, but I had to download it to get it to play.  On the Univ of Ark. site a recording of a man came up under her name.

Thanks for posting this, Ken. I saw Stanley's obituary last night amidst all sorts of other news and was immediately saddened.  He was probably second only to Bill Monroe in creating the bluegrass sound that we all recognize, and more than Monroe, I think, he stressed a real mountain music feel to his music. He was still making music up towards the end.  May we all be so lucky.

Well, that saddens me.  Always liked Ralph's and Ralph & Carter's music, even when they were doing more like acoustic country music rather than old time or bluegrass.  I got to meet him the last time he played up here.  He didn't remember our 10 or 15 minute conversation about 30 minutes after we had it.  He only did one song on the banjo and he forgot the words to one song.  It was one of those pleasurable yet sad moments of life.

RIP Dr. Ralph.

One of Bluegrass and Old Time music's founding voices passed away yesterday.  He will always be associated with the tunes tunes like Oh Death, Clinch Mountain Backstep, Pretty Polly and Little Maggie .  More at

http://bluegrasstoday.com/ralph-stanley-passes/

and

http://www.tennessean.com/story/entertainment/music/2016/06/23/ralph-stanley-bluegrass-legend-dead-89/86038242/

Tessie, you've been pointed to very good resources: Ken's beginner article and the Strother's String Gauge Calculator.

Most dulcimers with short VSLs are not intended to be tuned to D. Rather than are tuned higher, and those in the 23" VSL range are generally intended to be tuned up a fourth to G.  Can you tune your dulcimer to G, too?  Of course! If you get too low, the string will be too loose to make a nice sound, and if you get too high the string will get really tight and eventually break.

That is where the Strothers String Gauge Calculator, which Skip links to above, can help you. Put in the VSL and the note you want, and the calculator will tell you what string gauge will work. It errs on the light side, so feel free to go one or two strings heavier.

Just for some references, the McSpadden Ginger has a 23" VSL, and the set of strings they sell for that dulcimer tuned to G contains a .026 wound string for the bass, a .014" middle string, and a .010 for the melody.  I have a baritone dulcimette made by Ron Ewing, which has a 21" VSL, and I use a .020 on the bass,  a .014 on the middle, and a .010 on the melody.

My guess is that you could tune up to G if you want. Go slowly. Wear goggles. And know that breaking strings and learning to restring are among the hurdles you will overcome only to wonder why you found them so challenging to begin with.

You can use any of the modal tunings and others as long as all you are changing is the melody string(s) -- DAA, DAd, DAC, DAG are the most common.  For DAC you tune UP to C from DAA, DOWN to C from DAd.  Changing the bass string down to C or even B you can tune to those equivalents.  Tuning the bass string UP above D to E of perhaps F is possible, but going to G will probably snap it.

If you read Diane's "Stringbreak Phobia" post, you probably read my response there.  It WILL happen.  It WILL NOT kill you.  Strings are cheap.  Buy another set today.  Never tune a still string.  Hold a tuner knob that you think is the right one.  Pluck the string you want to change.  Immediately turn the knob a quarter-turn one way or the other.  If the string does not change it's sound, STOP.  You have the wrong tuner.  If it does change, go ahead and make the chage according to you electronic tuning device.

Perhaps you should read the article I wrote here several years ago called I Just Got A Dulcimer, Now What?  It's an illustrated glossary of dulcimer terms (so we all talk about the same things, the same way), plus answers to many beginner questions about the tuning, playing, care and feeding of your new instrument.  Here's the recently revised version of the article:

I Just Got A Dulcimer 2016.pdf - 1.1MB

You can use just about any tuning you want going down [looser], DGdd, DAcc [or is it DACC?], DAAA, and CGcc are used. You run a really good chance of realizing your fear going up [tighter] to GDgg with the strings on there now. you can check http://www.strothers.com/string_choice.htm for string sizes.

Amen!

(below the tuners and under the strings)

Didn't know under the strings - 

thanks for the extra details, I was wrapping an extra loop around a tuner to make sure the cord didn't slip off. 

Hi Barb, I have aggressive Rheumatoid Arthritis, which has diminished the use and strength of my fingers/ hands. I chose to play the mountain dulcimer, first because I love the sound and I play noter/drone. I have found it to challenge me to defy the disease by finding creative ways to use my noter like when I wear splints to make my hands comfortable I put a chop stick up my splint and when I do not wear splints my noter is a wooden spoon made out of hard wood which I cut the handle off to length and I hold the rounded spoon within the palm of my hand. This activity has kept my brain in concentration mode and has become my therapy and joy.

I wish you well in discovering your dulcimer journey. 

By the way, Strumelia's Noter/Drone blog is how I began to learn about playing the MD.

Let me be serious and set the kidding aside for a moment since this is a sensitive topic and one which I have had to deal with for many years with my work with a wide variety of people.   The statement that Rob makes concerning resentment is right on the money and it goes far beyond who is a "Native American" and who is not; or who is a member of a recognized tribe and who is not.  For the most part there are two prevailing issues at hand one having to do with identity and the other having to do with entitlement.   Let me explain.

Some folks use external groups or badges or whatever to give themselves some sort of identity that enables them to identify with a group or "clan" which creates a sense of belonging while at the same time providing some sort of boundary between themselves and the larger, "herd."  I have seen this with a large variety of folk.  Some claim to be Irish, some Italian, others German or Native or LGBT or whatever...could be religious in orientation too. " I am a Baptist or a Presbyterian, or Pentecostal or Catholic"........the same be true with a political affiliation as well.   Identity and belonging to a substructure that is part of the larger picture is the key here.   There is nothing wrong with any of that unless that self imposed identification real or imagined becomes the driving force in ones life and begins to mask the obligation to live as a genuine human being, setting aside our distinction as sentient beings charged with the responsibility of living in harmony with all beings.

The second issue is that people have somehow latched on to the idea that as human beings they have inherent right to claim for themselves whatever it is that they feel they want at any given moment.  Hence, in the resentment that Rob points out, and rightly so......some folks dislike and criticize folk with Tribal Cards, because they want one and feel entitled to it and if they can't have it, no one else should have one either.  At the most basic level this is a a form of jealousy that has no place in the life of a person who has even remotely begun to have a sense of self realization and emotional maturity.  Fred Beuchner once wrote that "jealousy is the desire to have the other person be as unsuccessful as you think you are."  If I remember that book was titled a A Theological ABC.  Rob has a card, it is who he is........his heritage, his familial solidarity.  That is worth cherishing.  I don't, but I also have heritage and solidarity with a group as well.   We are just different people all living together with all sorts of histories and traditions to recognize and appreciate.

To further muddy the waters just a bit, there are also folk who will totally disavow who they are or their traditions etc. in order to avoid anything that might make them feel limited in any way.  Sometimes this can be a most positive thing and enable someone to overcome all sorts of difficulties and issues.  Other times it can be  way of avoiding those things that need to be integrated into their personality and utilized as a stepping stone towards emotional and psychological maturity.  In other words, "get over it."  It only exists in your mind, it is gone.....now what have you learned from this would be a good way to overcome that issue.

Now isn't that one hell of a post for something that started out as a performance description?   So Rob, maybe the clearest way to describe yourself and what you do would be to put in your Bio or cut line...........          

                                                                                                       Rob N. Lackey

                                                                                      Singer, Song Writer, Mountain Musician

                                                                                                                and

                                                                                 Member of the Great Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

I always liked the term Amerindian because it distinguished New World "indians" from those people south of the Himalayas...

You're native because you were born here.  Yes, there are benefits from carrying the card.  Compromise, because a lot of pow wows are put on by those non-recognized groups that claim to be Indian.  Don't know if I could have associated with them very long.  I could have gotten away with most of the songs I would have wanted to play (I think.)

Thanks for bringing up the topic of small hands, big VSLs. I was about ready to start a topic on the beginners forum entitled "Read this before you throw your dulcimer out the window"! I measure up at 6 3/4 inches with degenerative arthritis of both thumbs. I played guitar a zillion years ago but had to give it up with increasing joint pain. But curiosity never dies. At the start of the year, i saw ukuleles and wondered if I could maybe start again with stringed instruments. And I did.

One thing led to another and I discovered dulcimers and decided to dive in--how hard could they be? I got an Apple Creek cheapee with 24" VSL and a used Mc Spadden just because I had heard the brand was great. Well, the 28" VSL was a surprise to me. I only saw stringed instruments in terms of chording, I had been a rhythm guitar player. And I had to finally admit, there was no way I was going to be chording much on a 28" McSpadden, heck I couldn't do many chords  on the Apple Creek. I had to leave my comfort zone, but in a mental way, not physical. I realized I was trying to make the dulcimer a guitar because that was what I was comfortable with. So I hit the Internet to learn about dulcimers. When I finally learned about earlier uses of the instrument with the noter and drone (thanks Strumelia), the huge VSLs finally made sense to me. I also scoped out smaller instruments, learned about chromatic vs diatonic layouts so I was able to find a couple little guys that I could chord on and not continually hurt myself. I also learned about other tunings like 1-3-5 that also had potential to allow me to start chording with the hands I have now.

So have I given up--NO!!!! But sometimes you have to set a goal and slowly work toward it using the resources you have at the time as you develop and find new ones. If I had not gone hunting I would not have discovered other zither-like instruments like the epinette des Vosges and scheitholt that also allow you to play modal music with melody and more drones. So do not allow your initial frustrations with the dulcimer limit your ambitions. You just may need to adapt and tackle your goals step by step.  Barb 

Yep -- Tie the cord around a flathead below the tuners and under the strings, of course.  On a scroll head you can tie around the knob or several other places.  Dusty's photos show you how.

Hey Lisa...out of curiosity I checked the measurement that you are talking about and mine is exactly the same as yours.  I had to stretch my hand a bit to make it to 8 inches.  I agree with the guys  however, persistence does pay off.  It took me almost a year to develop the muscle strength in my pinky to be able to use it successfully.  During that year however, I had to find creative ways to "cheat".  I would use the pinky as much as I could, but would have to finger some chords differently or use my ring finger.  After several months of doing this I started to use my pinky without thinking about it.  Gradually the length of "use" time became longer and longer.  Now it is not a problem at all and all of my hard work has improved my playing skills.  I have played dulcimers with a 23 to a 30 VSL.  I find that a 27 VSL suits me pretty well.  It is very important to find what works for YOU!  If I might make one suggestion,....whatever VSL you decide on, you may want to stick to that length.  I have been play the 27VSL for so long now, that my brain gets "confused" when I try to swap to another VSL.  LOL. The most important thing is to find what works for you!

Keeping in mind that I exercised my hands a lot while I was studying classical guitar, 8 1/2 inches.  The length of my index finger is 2 7/8 measuring from the inside to the tip.  Dusty, I could barre an F.  Then the 1st real guitar teacher I ever had showed me the long A barre.  (Barring across we'll say 5, holding down all the strings with the 1st finger.  Then doing a barre across 3 4 2 with the 3rd finger at the 7th fret, lifting it a little to sound the 1st string, 5th fret.)  I came back the next week and wasn't making the chord that way.  He asked me why not?  I said, "I can't."  He replied, "Well, if you can't, don't bother to come back; you've gone as far as you can go."  I fussed, cussed, cried and worked, sweated and practiced and, by golly, I could make it. I was swelled with 11 (maybe 12) year old pride as I displayed my ability to play the chord.  Jack just grinned at me and said, "I knew you could do it; you just didn't want to have to work at it."  He was right.  I wanted to take the easy way out.

Lisa, I'll put up.  My reach measured like you did is 8 1/2 inches.  Unfortunately, I can't really rely on my pinky in playing due to nerve damage.  Just for fun, I checked the measurement from the tip of my ring finger to my thumb and found it to be the same.  In other words, my hands are pretty small for someone my actual size. 

Lisa, the point is not that everyone will be able to reach every single possible chord on an instrument with a 30" VSL, but that you don't know what you are capable of until you try.  And I don't mean try once, I mean try every day for a year or more.  My first dulcimer had a 28" scale length. When I first got it, I could neither stretch to the 1-2-4 chord or scrunch my fingers into the 6-5-7 chord.  The muscles in my fingers just wouldn't do it.  But instead of immediately trading my dulcimer for a shorter one (which would probably have a less rich tone, less volume, and less sustain), I kept playing.  I faked that 1-2-4 chord by playing a a 1-0-1 chord instead and I rarely ventured up the fretboard to those skinny frets.  But two years later, I was able to play both of those chords with ease.  The muscles in my fingers had to become both more flexible and stronger, and that happens when you play.

If you did exercises with your left hand, the pain you feel now from stretching to 8" would eventually subside, and you might indeed be able to stretch that way comfortably. And remember my point that other issues affect our reach as well. If you have very low action, stretching for a chord will be much easier than if you have high action and have to press down with lots of pressure.

I cannot do the splits.  But there is no doubt that if I started doing stretching exercises, eventually I would be able to. Along the way I would stretch enough that it would hurt, but eventually I would develop the flexibility and strength to do it.  The length between my feet when doing the splits might not be as long as other people who are taller than I am (which is most, for I'm only 5'6"), but until I spend the time stretching, I have no idea what my limit would be.

We all have our limits, and you are certainly correct that some people have longer fingers than others. But the point Rob made here is that people should not give up too early on longer instruments without giving their hands time to stretch and strengthen.

When I was a kid learning the guitar, I, too, thought that I could never do barre chords.  Even the barre across the B and E strings that's necessary for a simple F chord seemed impossible.  But one summer I decided to attack the problem. I would push my index finger down with my right hand to force it into position.  It hurt.  I forced myself to hold some of those (painful) positions as long as I could.  I did that many times every day.  Little by little the pain went away, and little by little the muscles in my finger strengthened, and by the end of the summer I was playing barre chords with ease.  What is necessary for barre chords is not a long finger, but sufficiently developed muscles in our finger.  Theoretically someone might have a finger that is too short to reach across the guitar fretboard--but toddlers and midgits aside--I don' t think there are many.

No one is born with a pinky strong enough to depress a heavy bass string and get a pure sound.  Some people try and decide that their pinky can't do it and they never use their pinky. Others work on it and eventually develop the strength to play.  The lesson that Rob is trying to impart is to not decide "I can't do something" without genuinely taking the time to work on it. 

There's a guy I see at local dulcimer events a few times a year.  He plays a McSpadden Ginger tuned to DAd because he says his hands are too small for a full-sized dulcimer.  But when we held our hands together, he realized that his hands were much longer than mine.  I tried to convince him to get a bigger dulcimer for tuning in D and tune his Ginger up to G or A where it belongs.  He decided that he's been playing too long (over ten years) to make the adjustment now.  Maybe he's right. Ten years is a long time to things one way. But I bet ten years ago had he stuck it out with a full-sized dulcimer, he would be able to play it perfectly well.

  I remember the first time I saw the sheet music for Stan Rogers' The Flowers of Bermuda , I nearly passed out from shock at all the time signature changes.  Sometimes music is easier if we don't look too close at the details!

OK gentlemen, put up or shut up.  My left hand, fully stretched so that my pinky and thumb form a straight line (which is more flexible than a lot of people can manage) measures barely 8 inches.  That's stretched flat, pinky tip to thumb tip.  If I arch my fingers so I can fret cleanly, I have a 6.5" reach. 

How long is your reach?

I have a friend who kept insisting I could play barre chords on guitar if I really wanted to.  Finally I had him hold up his left hand, I held mine against his, and he saw that his index finger is 2" longer than mine (and some significant but unmeasured amount bigger in circumference, too).  True, I could still play barre chords, but it would be Darned Difficult and a heck of a lot harder for me than it is for him.  Need I add that he thinks he cannot play soprano uke?

I don't disagree that beginning players will, with practice, be able to reach frets they couldn't manage at first.  But a scale length that's a bit challenging to someone with large, flexible hands can be unreasonable for someone who doesn't have the reach.  How much pain should someone have to endure to play a dulcimer?

My left wrist hurts now from making that 8" measurement.  Stretched a bit too far to make a point.  Not the first time I've done that. 

The leather strap or cord we just keep looped or tied around the dulcimer?       

John Keane's insights on this topic should be considered thoughtfully by all.  Also, remember the "comfort zone" changes, What was a pain in the butt 2 weeks ago is probably not much trouble today.  All of us can echo Ken Hulme's thoughts as well. There's no "magical solution" other than practice: practicing things that you think are boring (they probably are;) practicing parts of songs that are giving you trouble; not playing but practice.  When you make a mistake in what you are practicing you start over and play more slowly/precisely, etc, until you get it right.  Then you play it again and again.  Dusty's on point as usual, too.  There are other things to consider than vsl.  I'd rather have a wider fretboard because I mostly fingerpick.  I'd rather have 4 independent strings that to have a 6 1/2 fret. To me, you can do more with tunings than with more frets. Like him, I want about as low an action as I can get, lower than I'd want on a guitar (except for a flamenco guitar.)  I'm glad y'all can't see me when I'm trying to work out a new tune; I can get pretty testy when the fingers don't move like I want.  But I know with practice they'll get there; the chords will ring out and the melodies will be clear, even if they are out of my comfort zone now.

There are fancy hangers out there, but as the Kens and Dan have explained, you just need a chord and a picture hanger. I just use leather boot laces that I bought at the hardware store.  If I spent a moment or two to even out the lengths and hide the knots, it would all look nicer, but since I pull them off the wall to play all the time, I don't normally worry about it.  Here are four on one wall in my office.  

Oh, and in case you can't tell, that's a picture of Pete Seeger's banjo head.

Rob has spoken most eloquently.

  I've been telling folks this for years, but his words will hit home to many new players who are being pressed into a short VSL and a magical solution to learning overnight.

I have sweet dulcimers not needing capital punishment  ;-)  - just looking for a way to hang or mount now that I am getting one more and need to make room/re-arrange and have all at the ready.

What did your dulcimer do that it deserves capital punishment? There are a variety of ways to hang a dulcimer for display depending upon what type of peg head you have. The leather/cord tie is one way. I have seen "holders" that are mounted to wall where the bottom of the dulcimer is in a cradle and the top between two dowel rods with a rubber band stitched across the face of the dulcimer to keep it from falling out. There are commercial dulcimer hangers available which are similar to most guitar hangers that you can mount on a wall. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

It's about time someone made this statement.  I could not agree more with Rob and John.  First, no one has ever said, "I have long fingers, making the dulcimer easty to play!"  On the contrary, playing a musical instrument is a challenge, and rather than convince one another that we have some physical limitation that makes that challenger more . . . er . . . uh challenging, we should encourage one another to accept the challenge and patiently overcome it.

Yes, be patient.  As John says, take the time to discover what your comfort zone is, but at the same time realize the the more you play the stronger the muscles in your finger will be and the easier some of those stretches will be.  Over time, fingerings that seemed impossible will become possible, then comfortable, and then easy as pie!

And believe me, for every person who has trouble stretching into a 1-2-4 chord, there is someone having trouble scrunching into a 9-10-9 chord.  Dulcimers with long VSLs have their challenges, but so do those with short VSLs.  And the length of the VSL is not the only factor that affects comfort of playing.  I find some fretboards to be too narrow or two wide, although my preference depends on whether I'm fingerpicking or flatpicking.  And more than anything, low action makes left-hand fingering so much easier.  Low action enables me to stretch my fingers more because less strength is required to depress a string.

Rather than decide that you have some physical limitation that won't allow you to play dulcimers of certain designs, take the time to play a while, to develop the strength and finger independence good playing requires. Who knows? You might find not only that you can handle longer VSLs, but that you like the deeper tone, extra volume, and increased sustain such instruments bring.

I did my research and chose to buy from our local luthiers' of our wonderful site and could not be happier with my 2 dulci's.

I love the history and stories of the old time builders and also play noter/drone. First, because I love the sound and second because, of the lack of ability of my fingers and comfort because of Rheumatoid Arthritis.

I also live in Central MT, where a MD has not been seen and heard, so buying on line is my option, I don't think I am brave enough to buy from someone outside of our site, an unknown seller. I really enjoy following the process of our Luthiers' who share with us on our site.

As you can see in my picture I choose a Thomas replica by Kevin Messanger which is a real joy to play and a beautiful instrument.

I also have a Butternut by Robert Schuler who models after Jefferies, it is a real beauty and provides me with a balance of modern and old time sounds and playing. If you are interested, I have pictures of each on my page.

My future dulcimer purchases will be from other lutheriers' of our site. They are wonderful people, honest and treat you with alot of care. Unfortunately, I am not in a position right now to satisfy my wants of more wooden beauties with strings from several other exceptionally talented Luthiers from our site, but I have my list. 

George, I was looking at that one, too.  I have no idea who made it, but it looks like it might be a pretty one.

Looking at this one, looks older, seems to be in good shape with the usual TLC needed. I'm trying to figure out who may have made it, just seeing if any of you may recognize it.

 All that can be seen as far as makers mark inside is, APR Red St _______

 Any educated guesses, here are a few photos. Thanks, just my curiosity going.

 Also what anyone may know about A. W. Jeffreys  I'm watching a few online auctions. Thanks as always!  George

 1.jpg - 115KB